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  #1341  
Old 14.12.2014, 05:34
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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You mean 7 in the top 11! As I already posted there are 4 European universities in the top 6.
When I was in school seven plus 4 was 11 - or maybe US universities have a different maths system?
Maybe you should work for Voice of America!

We could also write that 10 US universities are in the top 20.

9 from the top 20 are from "some (relatively speaking) obscure outfits in Europe" and one from Canada.
Two of the nine are from little Switzerland

When you get down to the 700's then 25% are US universities

Which ever way we cut the bacon it is clearly nonsense to describe European universities as "some (relatively speaking) obscure outfits in Europe".

It all depends on the criteria. Take Switzerland and see how heavily above in the ranking you find the two federal technical universities, ETH Zürich and Polytechnique Lausanne with the universities of Geneva, Zürich, Basel, Bern to follow behind rank 70. This shows that the "experts" gave clear Preference to technical sciences.


If you want to study French literature, you best try it with the Sorbonne or maybe the University of Geneva, if you want to study Germanistik, you have to stick with places in Germany, Austria and Switzerland . For political sciences, people recommend the University of Basel
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  #1342  
Old 14.12.2014, 10:56
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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No, you have to be less arrogant and admit when a good point to the discussion has been made.

I don't know if you are aware, but arrogance is not convincing.
I will admit if a good point to the discussion has been made, but this was certainly not the case with that post. If there is one thing that makes me angry, it is people who claim something and get snippy if they are asked to back it up. Especially if there is ample indication that they have no clue about the dimension of the phenomenon they are describing (which certainly exists in this case).

As EAB was saying this is for me unbelievably arrogant. If one claims something, one has to proof it. If one is not able to do so, say so! But providing nothing and acting like it was all obvious - this really gets me going. This is deliberate disinformation and spreading rumours. There are much better options:



I don't care if I act or am perceived arrogant at that point in a discussion. It's not like I am trying to convince anybody the MEI was a good thing. I voted against it and am still against it. As many here I lost in a democratic process, but that does not make it right to make up 'facts' and act like Switzerland is doomed (even if some seem to hope this was the case) based on what borders on conspiracy theories.

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It is so NOT the Swiss style of debating. You are definitely not Swiss, I can tell from a mile.
Don't say that, it hurts me so much! .

I am sure this discussion will be profiting very much from talking in stereotypes.
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  #1343  
Old 14.12.2014, 11:25
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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Ummm ... NO ..not with all, and I say this from direct knowledge after spending four years at EPFL .. and who are you to decide for every ETH student, what is a sought after university for them. I know a Swiss student who was eager to go and do her thesis in materials at the University of Talinn.

You seem to like putting limits on what people should be allowed to do even more than your claims about what the EU limits
You know sometimes it seems to me like people discussing things on this forum forget that there is a big world out there past the boundaries of the EU. A world in which there is no Erasmus and where people are getting very well educated nevertheless. So when you speak of "putting limits" let's think of the global perspective, where Universities around the world have agreements and arrangements with one another - and this is not seen as "limiting" but giving opportunity!
It's pretty normal to say "Well, we cater to all the subjects via the well-known educational institutions, but if you want to go study tapestry in some place almost nobody has heard of, well this is for you yourself to sort out."
That being said, I would think that the vast majority of students are looking to get accreditation from well-known establishments - so what this seems to be amounting to, once again, is the placing of higher priority for the vast minority instead of the majority.

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Funding them directly would be useless if they cannot go to an EU university under Erasmus to begin with.
So without Erasmus' funding all EU universities in the Erasmus program are off limits!?
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  #1344  
Old 14.12.2014, 11:48
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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About "Well if the Federal Government thinks that direct funding would be more cost effective I guess that's pretty much that". "

I always thought "könnte" meant "could be" not "would be?
Yes. To me by the time our Federal Government starts saying "could be" it pretty much means that that is a very real possibility - not some distant hypothetical - especially when it is written where it was written!

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About " "is 780CHF per month enough for a student to live on"" that is an average number based on Swiss contribution to Erasmus, How much an actual Swiss student would receive as a scholarship would not be directly related to this 780CHF per month,
As I understand it it does have something to do with it - because lets say we were investing 780CHF per month per 1 of 3000 students, and yet only 1500 students were getting scholarships via Erasmus for around 800CHF per month - financially this would be a rip-off for Switzerland!

But as I understand it the total sum we invest into Erasmus is for UP TO 3000 students - so what is the actual number!?

"Der Bundesrat bestätigt, dass bisher pro akademischem Jahr rund 3000 Studierende über Erasmus gefördert wurden. Die absoluten Zahlen zu Anzahl, Dauer, Destination und Herkunft der Erasmus-Mobilität auf Hochschulebene werden durch die nationale Agentur, die CH-Stiftung, regelmässig aufbereitet und publiziert." (http://www.parlament.ch/d/suche/seit...ch_id=20143115)

I am not sure where to find these published figures ...

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About "without the FMOP would Swiss need a visa to enter the EU" To live/work/study the answer is yes. Ask any non-EU student in Switzerland about their visa!
Maybe I am reading this wrong, but it seems to indicate here that "European citizens" do not need a visa. It also lists a host of other countries which are not in Europe and also do not need visa's. http://www.studyineurope.eu/schengen-visa

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About "you and some others having been bouncing numbers back and forth" True, but these are the number you asked for; problem is that no numbers are agreed for the years to 2020 so there are many different views around!
Ok, but where is the confusion!? Afaik the budgets for 2014, 15, and 16 were decided on and are published - but then the EU requested a new amount for Erasmus+ (which altogether goes from 2014 - 2020, afaik) which would nearly triple the investment. In 2016 already it would have risen to 34.5M for that year ... This led to the Bundesrat discussing the possibility of pulling out in January 2014 - before the MEI vote.

So we have some, not all but some, figures to work with.
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  #1345  
Old 14.12.2014, 12:23
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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Yes. To me by the time our Federal Government starts saying "could be" it pretty much means that that is a very real possibility - not some distant hypothetical - especially when it is written where it was written!



As I understand it it does have something to do with it - because lets say we were investing 780CHF per month per 1 of 3000 students, and yet only 1500 students were getting scholarships via Erasmus for around 800CHF per month - financially this would be a rip-off for Switzerland!

But as I understand it the total sum we invest into Erasmus is for UP TO 3000 students - so what is the actual number!?

"Der Bundesrat bestätigt, dass bisher pro akademischem Jahr rund 3000 Studierende über Erasmus gefördert wurden. Die absoluten Zahlen zu Anzahl, Dauer, Destination und Herkunft der Erasmus-Mobilität auf Hochschulebene werden durch die nationale Agentur, die CH-Stiftung, regelmässig aufbereitet und publiziert." (http://www.parlament.ch/d/suche/seit...ch_id=20143115)

I am not sure where to find these published figures ...



Maybe I am reading this wrong, but it seems to indicate here that "European citizens" do not need a visa. It also lists a host of other countries which are not in Europe and also do not need visa's. http://www.studyineurope.eu/schengen-visa



Ok, but where is the confusion!? Afaik the budgets for 2014, 15, and 16 were decided on and are published - but then the EU requested a new amount for Erasmus+ (which altogether goes from 2014 - 2020, afaik) which would nearly triple the investment. In 2016 already it would have risen to 34.5M for that year ... This led to the Bundesrat discussing the possibility of pulling out in January 2014 - before the MEI vote.

So we have some, not all but some, figures to work with.
Thanks for the link, did you read this sentence? Please, note that if you intend to study in Europe for a period of time of 90 or more days, you will also need to obtain a residence permit.
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  #1346  
Old 14.12.2014, 13:09
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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Thanks for the link, did you read this sentence? Please, note that if you intend to study in Europe for a period of time of 90 or more days, you will also need to obtain a residence permit.


if you plan to study in Europe in any of the states listed below:
Austria, Belgium, the Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Italy, Latvia, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Malta, the Netherlands, Poland, Portugal, Slovakia, Slovenia, Spain, Sweden (but not Ireland and the United Kingdom) plus Iceland, Norway and Switzerland (which are not EU members).


THIS means that CH People ARE Schengen People and already HAVE a residence Permit for all the countries listed including those behind "plus", not however for Britain and Ireland.


"Europe" is something quite different from what is wrongly but officially stated, rather the countries of the Council of Europe (Europarat)
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  #1347  
Old 14.12.2014, 13:36
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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if you plan to study in Europe in any of the states listed below:
Austria, Belgium, the Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Italy, Latvia, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Malta, the Netherlands, Poland, Portugal, Slovakia, Slovenia, Spain, Sweden (but not Ireland and the United Kingdom) plus Iceland, Norway and Switzerland (which are not EU members).


THIS means that CH People ARE Schengen People and already HAVE a residence Permit for all the countries listed including those behind "plus", not however for Britain and Ireland.


"Europe" is something quite different from what is wrongly but officially stated, rather the countries of the Council of Europe (Europarat)
About "THIS means that CH People ARE Schengen People and already HAVE a residence Permit for all the countries listed"
Only today while fmop exists under the bilateral treaties; if Switzerland stops or changes fmop without EU agreement then there is the risk that the EU changes the residence permit situation ; no more fmop benefits for Switzerland.

The EU Council of Ministers is expected to publish its report on the relationship to Switzerland next Tuesday

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  #1348  
Old 14.12.2014, 13:57
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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About "THIS means that CH People ARE Schengen People and already HAVE a residence Permit for all the countries listed"
Only today while fmop exists under the bilateral treaties; if Switzerland stops or changes fmop without EU agreement then there is the risk that the EU changes the residence permit situation ; no more fmop benefits for Switzerland.

Ok, I think there is some confusion here. Initially you lumped together Erasmus and FMOP when you said:

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Without Erasmus and fmop then Swiss students would have to compete for a limited number of EU visas
I don't know why you did that since the discussion was focusing on Erasmus and how the situation would be without Erasmus, not FMOP! I then replied to you:

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So if one withdraws from Erasmus they also loose FMOP!?
Also, I did not know that EU visas were limited ... and if Switzerland were without the FMOP would Swiss need a visa to enter the EU!?
Notice, up until this point we were speaking of visas and not permits.
You also made the assertion earlier that the "number of EU visas" are "limited" - which I would like to know more about and what determines these limits.

So not sure where this is all going ...

Question was: Without Erasmus what happens?

And it seems like Visas and Permits are not required for Swiss (still under the FMOP).
Without the FMOP do we need Visas? (I don't think so) But what about Permits without FMOP?
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  #1349  
Old 14.12.2014, 20:54
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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I really hope you are a writer or painter or otherwise in the business of creating art, because in all other jobs that have some intellectual requirements your "own thinking" has to be based on facts. You need the numbers. You need the facts. Then you can interpret them and form an opinion / hypothesis.

Pulling out random theories out of ones ass is not seen as a positive thing in most professions.


Stating something as being "hardly a secret" is an other way of stating that the truth of your claim is common knowledge. If it is a well accepted fact that your claims are true, it can not be very difficult to produce an adequate source for it.



You claimed something, now we are demanding proof and sources. This is completely legitimate and best practice since the 17th century.

And your best shot is linking to PWC... seriously? Sorry, but if you came up with such claims in one of my business meetings and provided nothing as a source except what is essentially an advert for PWC you would get torn apart. What's next? Discussing environmental issues based on what the shop assistant at a gas station told you? The site you linked to doesn't even contain any information about the current situation in Switzerland! I can not believe you can not do better than this!



Sorry, but if you want to play with adults you have to step up your game. This is not even high school niveau.
Off topic. Numbers are not facts. They can build up facts. But only when got complemented with qualitative story. With the latter, numbers can be misleading and only tell you part of the story.
And yes, one can discuss environmental issues based on the story of the shop assistant at a gas station because she/he is possibly the bearer of the environmental damage.
I think as an adult, one can get the message sent without having a swollen head.
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  #1350  
Old 14.12.2014, 21:29
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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Ok, I think there is some confusion here. Initially you lumped together Erasmus and FMOP when you said:

I don't know why you did that since the discussion was focusing on Erasmus and how the situation would be without Erasmus, not FMOP! I then replied to you:

Notice, up until this point we were speaking of visas and not permits.
You also made the assertion earlier that the "number of EU visas" are "limited" - which I would like to know more about and what determines these limits.

So not sure where this is all going ...

Question was: Without Erasmus what happens?

And it seems like Visas and Permits are not required for Swiss (still under the FMOP).
Without the FMOP do we need Visas? (I don't think so) But what about Permits without FMOP?
About "Ok, I think there is some confusion here. Initially you lumped together Erasmus and FMOP when you said: ..."

Oh dear, where to start?
Let us go back to first principles!

Title of this thread is "Repercussions of Vote Already Starting..."

When we look at the first post in this thread we see the following quote "the EU has shut down talks re. the Horizon 2020 and Erasmus+ programs."

So who lumped together Erasmus and FMOP? Me or the EU?

The discussion in this thread has drifted so far away from the original topic that it no longer makes it sense.

About "the discussion was focusing on Erasmus and how the situation would be without Erasmus, not FMOP"

Fine if you want to discuss Erasmus without fmop then please start a new thread?
Do not discuss it in this thread which is all about "Repercussions of Vote Already Starting..." and the first European reaction which was "the EU has shut down talks re Erasmus+ programs."

Do not accuse me of "lumping together Erasmus and FMOP " as if this was a new thing when this was actually the main and prime topic of this thread from the first post!

Clearly if Switzerland unilaterally changes fmop without EU agreement there could be consequences. These consequences could include Switzerland being excluded from Schengen and Switzerland no longer automatically receiving resident permits for studies by Swiss people in EU countries. I have no idea if such consequences would be realistic and actually happen and neither do you
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  #1351  
Old 14.12.2014, 21:31
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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Off topic. Numbers are not facts. They can build up facts. But only when got complemented with qualitative story. With the latter, numbers can be misleading and only tell you part of the story.
And yes, one can discuss environmental issues based on the story of the shop assistant at a gas station because she/he is possibly the bearer of the environmental damage.
I think as an adult, one can get the message sent without having a swollen head.
On a scale of 1 to 10 for usefulness I would rate that post about a -2
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  #1352  
Old 14.12.2014, 21:34
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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On a scale of 1 to 10 for usefulness I would rate that post about a -2
I would give it 12
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  #1353  
Old 14.12.2014, 21:38
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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I would give it 12
Sure you would - you don't mind going all over the place with your arguments, but if someone else does it's "start a new thread" from you!
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  #1354  
Old 14.12.2014, 22:11
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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About "THIS means that CH People ARE Schengen People and already HAVE a residence Permit for all the countries listed"
Only today while fmop exists under the bilateral treaties; if Switzerland stops or changes fmop without EU agreement then there is the risk that the EU changes the residence permit situation ; no more fmop benefits for Switzerland.

The EU Council of Ministers is expected to publish its report on the relationship to Switzerland next Tuesday

Switzerland is NOT to stop the Bilaterals
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Old 14.12.2014, 23:54
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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On a scale of 1 to 10 for usefulness I would rate that post about a -2
LOL.
Oh well, whether or not it is useful is a matter of perspective, isn't it?
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  #1356  
Old 15.12.2014, 00:20
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

For the Bundesrat to say costs "would" be lower would require a clearcut proposal, a defined follow-on regime. Lacking that "could" is the correct term.

The fact that BR Schneider-Ammann actually included an "exit Erasmus" proposal, and the lack of an adapted(lowered) EU demand despite attempts to renegotiate, makes the €100mln by 2020 still what's currently to be expected if CH remains in Erasmus, regardless of whether the EU demand has been accepted or not.

Time for some background info: swiss students structure
The CH-Stiftung that handles the scholarships: www.chstiftung.ch, also check out www.ch-go.ch
Statistics on student mobility (both incoming and outgoing) 2012/13
Payment structure 2015/16

2012/13 outgoing: 2'718 students (5.9 months average) and 272 Praktikum(internship) (5.3Months average). 2012/13 incoming 2'722 students and 1573 Praktikum. With 28mln for 2014 that gives monthly cost per outgoing student (including internships) of about 1600CHF, out of which the students receive 300CHF.

For 2015/16 outgoing students receive 300CHF monthly scholarship vs 360 for incoming. European universities no longer pay scholarships for Erasmus-students at swiss universities so for the time being swiss government voluntarily fills the gap (presumably to prevent hardships). Interestingly enough this seems to be financed with the no longer needed payments to Erasmus as I havent' seen any kind of demand for additional financing.

Wolli
CH would break the Bilaterale if it were to put any kind of restriction on the FMOP, or if it were to limit the ability of EU citizens to live here and work. That's of course not the same as cancelling, but it may well have the same eventual effect.
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Old 15.12.2014, 13:53
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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Sorry, but if you want to play with adults you have to step up your game. This is not even high school niveau.
look, I usually like your posts, but acting like an intellectual tough guy is just plain silly. what I posted is hardly rocket science, it is part of what I do for a living and the principal reason I am living in my second European tax haven in the last 5 years. if I have to cull all of the available public information to demonstrate to you the use of tax-efficient capital structures in countries like Switzerland before having a discussion, then there is candidly no point in trying to have a discussion - the issue is just plain that obvious.

unfortunately, permanent establishment issues are different in the Cayman Islands than in Switzerland or Luxembourg, otherwise I would be trying to figure out a way to move there where the weather is a little nicer.

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegDat...74_REV1_EN.pdf

EDIT: here is a Bloomberg article regarding Caterpillar, there are also other articles available which describe in somewhat greater detail the capital structure used b Caterpillar. it's important to note, of course, that nothing Caterpillar did was illegal, and I would hardly even consider it unethical, immoral or anything else, since there is nothing wrong at all with minimizing tax obligations - either for businesses or for individuals.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-0...-maneuver.html

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  #1358  
Old 15.12.2014, 14:27
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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I would also like more than what was supplied by crazygringo - which amounted to basically nothing more than just stating that is was so.
here, as well, is a map from KPMG highlighting the cantons that are benefiting most (in terms of tax revenues) from the current corporate tax regime in Switzerland. I suspect the cantonal leaders will come as no surprise to you.

http://www.kpmg.com/CH/en/Library/Ar...axation-en.pdf
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  #1359  
Old 15.12.2014, 14:43
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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here, as well, is a map from KPMG highlighting the cantons that are benefiting most (in terms of tax revenues) from the current corporate tax regime in Switzerland. I suspect the cantonal leaders will come as no surprise to you.

http://www.kpmg.com/CH/en/Library/Ar...axation-en.pdf

Some statements you were asked to provide supporting material on where:

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the example above is the driver of Switzerland's economic growth over the last 25-30 years.
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without your hated EU partners, there are no FTA's for Switzerland
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  #1360  
Old 15.12.2014, 16:48
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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Some statements you were asked to provide supporting material on where:
first of all, I absolutely loathe the argument that, in order to posit an independent thought regarding any subject matter, it is first necessary to demonstrate through an internet link that somebody else (ideally somebody of keen academic standing) has previously posited the same thought. you can simply look at statistics regarding the growth of foreign investment, holding companies, etc. in Switzerland and compare it with the growth in Swiss GDP over the same period, for example. not per capita GDP, of course, since the delta between the growth in Swiss GDP and per capita GDP in Switzerland may very well be part of the reason for the recent immigration initiatives.

nevertheless, hopefully this will get you started, it is focused on the period between WWI and WWII but the issues remain more or less the same:

http://www.ehes.org/EHES_No27.pdf
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erasmus, european union, fmop, horizon, immigration, masseneinwanderung, vote




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