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  #121  
Old 19.02.2014, 17:59
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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well, they can give them an ultimatum, become swiss or be kicked out. let them have all the self-determination they want
Like they kicked out Ivan the Rapist and Detlef the Pervert? Or are those guys still here?
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  #122  
Old 19.02.2014, 18:09
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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They are paying a small amount into the programme, whilst taking a smaller hit on their own tuition costs. In comparison, countries that host swiss students contribute much more, and take a larger hit on tuition fees.
I also don't think Swiss tuition costs are extremely low compared to other EU countries. France is cheaper and Germany around the same level.

The UK is of course massively more expensive, but they are probably the priciest ones by an order of magnitude.
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  #123  
Old 19.02.2014, 18:59
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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into separate rooms! Switzerland can now negotiate it's own student exchange programmes with USA, Russia, China, African and Latin American countries. No FMOP = no EU for you!
let's not exaggerate. The "Coimbra" Program includes partners in Britain like the universities of Oxford and Cambridge and the university of Siena in Italy. Britain and Italy at present still are FULL MEMBERS of the EU.

But indeed, a real and definite problem is the scientific research matter, where research here is to lose billions of CHF as a result of the matter. The Cantons of Zürich, Basel-Stadt and Geneva may well deduct the money next time when certain Cantons are to demand financial support And the universities of the three cities may make access to them more difficult for citizens of other Cantons, as the universities are NOT a federal matter but fully Canton owned

Interesting is that the Coimbra program is of the same origin as Mr Barroso, Of course just a strange coincidence

Back to the research programs. THIS http://
http://www.ethlife.ethz.ch/archive_a...20_mm/index_EN
is about the Horizon 2020 program. To finance any kind of "replacement", Zürich and Basel and Geneva will have to cut back their aid to the Yes sayer cantons quite seriously. And it will not be easy at all. The ETH however is union-owned and so can demand some compensation out of the union finances

The mess caused by the Yes-voters is clearly what I feared. But I hope nevertheless that the Federal government will manage to find ways out of the present disaster.

Clear is that a repetition of the vote NOW would result in a clear NO of at least 55% . This IS important for the work of the federal government and the Swiss diplomats abroad.
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  #124  
Old 19.02.2014, 19:04
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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The UK is of course massively more expensive, but they are probably the priciest ones by an order of magnitude.
A proper education doesn't come cheap, you know.
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  #125  
Old 19.02.2014, 19:05
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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Erasmus works pretty simple: The receiving country supports the incoming students. While Switzerland has more international students in the country than the 2700 Swiss using Erasmus are by far the most normally enrolled in CH and pay themselves. The Swiss tuition is compared to countries like the UK an absolute bargain... so Swiss students going there benefit way more from Erasmus than English students coming here - at the expense of the UK tax payers.

The one reason why Switzerland does not join the EU has always been money - the Swiss are absolutely rightfully assuming that they would have to pay over averagely high and support the poorer parts of the union. And the majority of the Swiss has repeatedly voted against it. If I was Swiss would I probably vote against it as well - but I'd be aware of the consequences and not throw a tantrum if they happen...
So far, the Swiss politicians were always smart and cherry picked the parts they benefitted from - like Erasmus. I guess this will have an end now as the EU is fed up with the pick and choose mentality.

I do not see at all the problem: Switzerland could easily afford to pay those 2600 students a year their tuition wherever they want to study for the money they save on not joining the EU... but screaming "discrimination" seems to be far more the thing these days. And blaming the EU for being against a democratic vote as well as a bully based on some vague feeling instead of sticking to the facts.
Blamed now is not the EU but the SVP, even by people who had voted YES.
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  #126  
Old 19.02.2014, 19:12
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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Not any more!
The money now can be RE-routed to co-operation minded North American universities. A delegation from the Princeton University recently travelled around in Switzerland and made many contacts

But again, many of the programs in question brought EU money to Switzerland which now is LOST . One of the responsibles in Geneva has already made it clear that money lost by the University of Geneva will be deducted from the "Finanz-Ausgleich" --- the payments done to financially weaker CAntons.

I mean, many people in Zürich and Basel and Geneva feel like being left out in the rain by the others.
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  #127  
Old 19.02.2014, 19:24
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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One of the responsibles in Geneva has already made it clear that money lost by the University of Geneva will be deducted from the "Finanz-Ausgleich" --- the payments done to financially weaker CAntons.
As soon as it rains a little more than usual in Geneva, they threaten to withhold those payments. We had this already with the health insurance premiums.
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  #128  
Old 19.02.2014, 19:28
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Like they kicked out Ivan the Rapist and Detlef the Pervert? Or are those guys still here?
As they never existed, they could not be thown out
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  #129  
Old 19.02.2014, 19:30
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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A proper education don't come cheap, you know.
FTFY, Mirf
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  #130  
Old 19.02.2014, 19:31
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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As soon as it rains a little more than usual in Geneva, they threaten to withhold those payments. We had this already with the health insurance premiums.
While the Zürich university is studying all options, the Cantonal government has not yet said anything. That will come later, when they get info about the course the university will take
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  #131  
Old 19.02.2014, 19:48
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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Read my point again...that bit you have (very) selectively highlighted does not refer to the vote, it refers to the EU contributions that Switzerland pays.

No matter what world you live in, or what side of this argument you fall on, there is no room to disagree with one simple fact:

If Switzerland refuses to contribute to the EU at all, all the bilaterals will be cancelled. Switzerland will never, ever do this.

Regarding your wonderful CH universities...they are not the only good ones in Europe. I imagine EU Universities would be only too happy to have access to the billions of euros that were earmarked for Swiss universities over the next 7 years.
I have become oversensitive regarding statements about bilaterals being cancelled for one reason or another.
I acted on reflex there, but that's no excuse.

You are right; my reply did tear the one sentence out of context and as such it was inappropriate. I apologise for that.

I'll try to contribute something useful and constructive as way of apology.

One of the two "flaship" projects awarded a grand by Horizon 2020 is the Human Brain Project which is supervised by the EPFL. Here at least, the funding for the next 30 months is guaranteed.

I did not follow the whole thread, but I assume you were referring to the 4.4 billion CHF that CH pledged to the Horizon 2020 project (115 billion CHF). In this particular case, it would be an interesting signal to put politics over science and happily keep the Swiss contribution. I am not convinced that petty acts of revenge are beneficial to a union that aims to unite Europe in peace. (Yes, that doesn't guarantee anything)

The EU had to react to CH not signing the FMOP with Croatia. Yet they can't completely ignore the cons that are associated with FMOP, especially if they are serious about helping the eastern countries develop instead of "brain-draining" them. It may as well become a core topic during the elections in May. Who knows, maybe it may be reconsidered in the context of the EU.

It's speculation for now, but I believe it is important to consider how the vote pushed FMOP into the forum of discussion and that may well be a change for the better: Many great achievements started with a bold move.

The dice have been cast. All we can do now is hope and work for the best. My 5¢

-rhaetional
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  #132  
Old 19.02.2014, 20:01
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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I also don't think Swiss tuition costs are extremely low compared to other EU countries. France is cheaper and Germany around the same level.

The UK is of course massively more expensive, but they are probably the priciest ones by an order of magnitude.
Still cheap if you go to a Scottish university with an EU/EEC passport, of course all this may change now (for EEC passport holders in any case). If you are English, the Scots still love to make you pay the full wack, the law on tuition fees having gone through Westminster, not Edinburgh!
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  #133  
Old 19.02.2014, 20:03
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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I have become oversensitive regarding statements about bilaterals being cancelled for one reason or another.
I acted on reflex there, but that's no excuse.

You are right; my reply did tear the one sentence out of context and as such it was inappropriate. I apologise for that.

I'll try to contribute something useful and constructive as way of apology.

One of the two "flaship" projects awarded a grand by Horizon 2020 is the Human Brain Project which is supervised by the EPFL. Here at least, the funding for the next 30 months is guaranteed.

I did not follow the whole thread, but I assume you were referring to the 4.4 billion CHF that CH pledged to the Horizon 2020 project (115 billion CHF). In this particular case, it would be an interesting signal to put politics over science and happily keep the Swiss contribution. I am not convinced that petty acts of revenge are beneficial to a union that aims to unite Europe in peace. (Yes, that doesn't guarantee anything)

The EU had to react to CH not signing the FMOP with Croatia. Yet they can't completely ignore the cons that are associated with FMOP, especially if they are serious about helping the eastern countries develop instead of "brain-draining" them. It may as well become a core topic during the elections in May. Who knows, maybe it may be reconsidered in the context of the EU.

It's speculation for now, but I believe it is important to consider how the vote pushed FMOP into the forum of discussion and that may well be a change for the better: Many great achievements started with a bold move.

The dice have been cast. All we can do now is hope and work for the best. My 5¢

-rhaetional
It's so nice to read someone who can genuinely say sorry!
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  #134  
Old 19.02.2014, 20:07
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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It's so nice to read someone who can genuinely say sorry!
Indeed, a sign of character. I would have preferred to have seen €0.05 though... :-)
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  #135  
Old 19.02.2014, 21:03
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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If EU was serious, it would sit at the same table than Swiitzerland and negotiate to see how to work with this limitation.
The EU has a lot of other issues to deal with and setting up negotiations with someone who can not be relied upon to stick to the agreements it made, is probably not very high on their list of priorities. And the limitation you talk of is a fundamental principle for the EU, just as say neutrality is to us. So expecting them to work around that limitation would be like expecting us to give up our neutrality - not happen.

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Penalties is applying the same thing, like putting quotas on Swiss nationals. Not blocking students. This is bullying, and I will keep on saying it.
This fund is belonging to EU taxpayers and to expect the EU to pour millions of it into universities where EU academics are restricted from participation in projects is again a non starter - there is no way the EU parliament would accepted it for a start, especially as they are going to the polls in May.
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  #136  
Old 19.02.2014, 21:19
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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Also, keep in mind with the US you were starting negotiations at zero. With the EU, you'll be negotiating with people who are already peeved at you.
Very true: Romania, Bulgaria and Croatia just to start with and each of them have as much right to pull the plug on it as anyone else. And the EU prefers to consensus to a vote when it comes to external matters, so it does not look to good.
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  #137  
Old 19.02.2014, 22:11
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

Why does CH need universities anyway? Can't it just import the best international talent like the SVP says?
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  #138  
Old 19.02.2014, 22:24
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Why does CH need universities anyway? Can't it just import the best international talent like the SVP says?
Not from the EU it can't
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  #139  
Old 19.02.2014, 22:27
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Why does CH need universities anyway? Can't it just import the best international talent like the SVP says?
Good idea, cut out the middle man
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  #140  
Old 19.02.2014, 23:58
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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OIH. There is no lesson: there is a broken treaty on one side and penalties written in the treaty. That's it !

Stop personalizing things, it does not help and they are not personal, they are just the effect of broken agreements !

Reasonable solutions are going to be found with an objective mind set.
No treaty was broken. As the treaty is still in force. The Federal Government got the order to re-negotiate this particular treaty within three years.

Yes, the federal government will have to find reasonable solutions.
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