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  #1521  
Old 26.04.2016, 11:30
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Re: Repercussions of [immigration limits] Vote Already Starting...

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Take a look at the ad - it's pretty obvious what the message is, and it's downright idiotic! http://files.newsnetz.ch/story/1/5/0...topelement.jpg
Not according to Blocher, he compared the "NO-side" as the nazi's and the SVP as the jews in the 30s...poor SVP always being bullied

sorry only in German:
http://www.nzz.ch/meinung/kommentare...essen-ld.14647
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  #1522  
Old 26.04.2016, 11:31
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Re: Repercussions of [immigration limits] Vote Already Starting...

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Take a look at the ad - it's pretty obvious what the message is, and it's downright idiotic! http://files.newsnetz.ch/story/1/5/0...topelement.jpg
But is it? Especially to strangers?

And if it were why didn't oh-so-righteous scala inform his foreign companions?
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The German managers amount were really embarrassed. The American head of the group , said well I don't want to be exposed to this so we will not be expanding in Switzerland.
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  #1523  
Old 26.04.2016, 11:56
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Re: Repercussions of [immigration limits] Vote Already Starting...

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Not according to Blocher, he compared the "NO-side" as the nazi's and the SVP as the jews in the 30s...poor SVP always being bullied

sorry only in German:
http://www.nzz.ch/meinung/kommentare...essen-ld.14647
Strange both sides compared the other side to the Nazis; must be quite unique.

As for Blocher's comments he managed to completely destroy his own parties argument against this poster.

I hope Scala informed his colleagues that the poster was removed quote.

The Local also claimed that people resigned from the BDP in protest against their poster.

I have not heard of any SVP resignations; typical really. Or maybe a case of "follow the money"

Edit; Blocher was on the SRF "Talksendung" show with Roger Schawinski last night on this topic; he managed to make it all worse instead of the climb down some were expecting
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  #1524  
Old 27.04.2016, 01:04
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Re: Repercussions of [immigration limits] Vote Already Starting...

R.Schawinski is about the most inappropriate person for that interview:
RS is way too egocentric and emotional to stand even a hint of a chance against such an excellent debater/speaker as Blocher. Plus, being a jew he's doubly offended and emotionally involved.

To expect some kind of apology or a step back from Blocher probably fails to recognize that CB is simply old. Altersstarrsinn. By definition Blocher knows what is right.
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  #1525  
Old 27.04.2016, 17:26
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Re: Repercussions of [immigration limits] Vote Already Starting...

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R.Schawinski is about the most inappropriate person for that interview:
RS is way too egocentric and emotional to stand even a hint of a chance against such an excellent debater/speaker as Blocher. Plus, being a jew he's doubly offended and emotionally involved.

To expect some kind of apology or a step back from Blocher probably fails to recognize that CB is simply old. Altersstarrsinn. By definition Blocher knows what is right.
The recent history of "Right" parties in Europe has shown they usually break into factions and then implode. An example is the German AFD who got 7 candidates into the European Parliament in the last election but five of them have since left and joined other parties.

The basic issue for these parties is that they are "against" and have no common central strategy so they break into factions who are against different things and eventually the party splits up.

It will be interesting to see if the recent surge of support for such parties across Europe results in them better organising and so staying as focussed groups.

The SVP here has been a notable exception and has stayed together as a single party (apart from the tiny BPD split). Having a billionaire as the chief strategist who spends lots of his own money supporting his own strategies is a significant benefit; nobody wants to upset the goose that lays such golden eggs

The significant defeat of the SVP over the DSI initiative resulted from the sort of organised campaign that in the past I have only seen from the SVP. The SVP have to accept that they failed to convince a majority of the voters instead of whining about the opposition.

I suspect in the future we will see similar campaigns against such SVP initiatives; democracy in action! Followed by a significant improvement in the quality of the SVP arguments
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  #1526  
Old 27.04.2016, 23:24
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Re: Repercussions of [immigration limits] Vote Already Starting...

In my mind what you see as problems of the right are merely problems common to most if not all new/young organisations full of aspirations and still defining themselves and their niche. IIRC the greens for instance both in CH and DE had similar problems that almost had them break apart.

For the same reason I'd exclude SVP/UDC as a sample as that party goes back a century if not more. The exclusion of BDP was just that, a unilateral decision the receiving side (BDP) probably didn't like one bit, it wasnt' a split or breakup.

Both AfD and Front National are what I see as prime examples for "Die Revolution frisst ihre eigenen Kinder": Frauke Petry kicked out founder Lucke like a cuckoo would, and Marie LePen was overthrown by his own blood (reminding me of medieval blood feuds).
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  #1527  
Old 28.04.2016, 00:37
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Re: Repercussions of [immigration limits] Vote Already Starting...

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In my mind what you see as problems of the right are merely problems common to most if not all new/young organisations full of aspirations and still defining themselves and their niche. IIRC the greens for instance both in CH and DE had similar problems that almost had them break apart.

For the same reason I'd exclude SVP/UDC as a sample as that party goes back a century if not more. The exclusion of BDP was just that, a unilateral decision the receiving side (BDP) probably didn't like one bit, it wasnt' a split or breakup.

Both AfD and Front National are what I see as prime examples for "Die Revolution frisst ihre eigenen Kinder": Frauke Petry kicked out founder Lucke like a cuckoo would, and Marie LePen was overthrown by his own blood (reminding me of medieval blood feuds).
"For the same reason I'd exclude SVP/UDC as a sample"
I included the SVP because it changed dramatically in the 90's.
The Zürich-oriented wing led by Christoph Blocher represented a new radical right-wing populist agenda. The Zürich wing began to politicise asylum issues, and the question of European integration started to dominate Swiss political debates. They also adopted more confrontational methods.

Although Blocher was elected president of the Zürich SVP in '77 it was only in the 90's that the Zürich wing became the most powerful and influential. From being the smallest of the four governing parties at the start of the 1990s, the SVP party by the end of the decade emerged as the strongest party in Switzerland.

SVP had also entirely moved from its centrist, social-liberal position (after it merged with the Democratic Party) to its current right wing approach; effectively it was no longer the same party.

The Bern wing which had in the past been a leader of the centrist, social-liberal position mostly moved to the BDP following the Grison branch in 2008.

You are correct about the Greens; strangely there are a lot of parallels between the Greens and the right wing parties. Although at opposite ends of the political spectrum they often have similar methods and approaches to issues.
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  #1528  
Old 03.05.2016, 13:48
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Re: Repercussions of [immigration limits] Vote Already Starting...

According to the results of a survey published today here in Tagesanzeiger two thirds of the people want to control immigration but not at the price of losing the bilaterals.

If the SVP had been honest about the bilateral risk at the time of the vote then we could have saved an enormous amount of time and money since. Pity we cannot sue these liars to recover such costs.

Of course the Bundesrat also failed by not clearly and loudly publicising this risk.
Hopefully as already experienced for the DSI (enforced implementation of the deportation initiative) initiative they will in future state the truth.

It is a great pity that so many people were fooled into thinking there was no bilateral risk, for example, here.

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  #1529  
Old 10.05.2016, 10:32
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Re: Repercussions of [immigration limits] Vote Already Starting...

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According to the results of a survey published today here in Tagesanzeiger two thirds of the people want to control immigration but not at the price of losing the bilaterals.
Roughly the same as dec '14 with this representative poll where 69% were giving priority to the Bilaterals over MEI.

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If the SVP had been honest about the bilateral risk at the time of the vote then we could have saved an enormous amount of time and money since. Pity we cannot sue these liars to recover such costs.
Yeah. Unfortunately that's part of the price of a direct democracy that nobody can be held liable for.

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Of course the Bundesrat also failed by not clearly and loudly publicising this risk.
Is that so.

The official statement was quite clear "Zudem würden die bilateralen Abkommen und damit die Beziehungen mit der Europäischen Union in Frage gestellt." - absent an official EU statement this was about as clear as the BR could be. Also see for instance this interview with JSA where the interviewer accuses "Im Abstimmungskampf um die Zuwanderungsinitiative stehen Sie klar auf der Nein-Seite."

Articles like this one should make it unmistakably clear to everyone that the threat of the Bilaterals getting canceled were clearly voiced. Or this article, which questions whether the amount of work by the BR is even legal, calls it even propaganda.

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Hopefully as already experienced for the DSI (enforced implementation of the deportation initiative) initiative they will in future state the truth.
It's most deeply dishonest to blame the messenger that his message isn't believed and implying for the BR to have lied when in fact it was the SVP proponents that did the lying.

With the DSI it was mostly the population itself that got active. And the smack in Feb '14 (the Yes on the MEI) probably had many vote No that otherwise would have abstained.
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It is a great pity that so many people were fooled into thinking there was no bilateral risk, for example, here.
You can't force people (including you) to actually read the available info and think them thru. I'm sure you remember the discussions on the Durchsetzungsinitiative with Phos, who couldn't even be bothered for the longest time to read the proposed text.
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  #1530  
Old 10.05.2016, 17:29
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Re: Repercussions of [immigration limits] Vote Already Starting...

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Roughly the same as dec '14 with this representative poll where 69% were giving priority to the Bilaterals over MEI.


Yeah. Unfortunately that's part of the price of a direct democracy that nobody can be held liable for.


Is that so.

The official statement was quite clear "Zudem würden die bilateralen Abkommen und damit die Beziehungen mit der Europäischen Union in Frage gestellt." - absent an official EU statement this was about as clear as the BR could be. Also see for instance this interview with JSA where the interviewer accuses "Im Abstimmungskampf um die Zuwanderungsinitiative stehen Sie klar auf der Nein-Seite."

Articles like this one should make it unmistakably clear to everyone that the threat of the Bilaterals getting canceled were clearly voiced. Or this article, which questions whether the amount of work by the BR is even legal, calls it even propaganda.


It's most deeply dishonest to blame the messenger that his message isn't believed and implying for the BR to have lied when in fact it was the SVP proponents that did the lying.

With the DSI it was mostly the population itself that got active. And the smack in Feb '14 (the Yes on the MEI) probably had many vote No that otherwise would have abstained.

You can't force people (including you) to actually read the available info and think them thru. I'm sure you remember the discussions on the Durchsetzungsinitiative with Phos, who couldn't even be bothered for the longest time to read the proposed text.
"unmistakably clear to everyone that the threat of the Bilaterals getting cancelled were clearly voiced" There were many EF people and also Swiss people I know who denied there was a threat of the Bilaterals getting cancelled consequently the message was not strong enough! Claims that the BR lied were, of course, under the belt.

"With the DSI it was mostly the population itself that got active. " True but my impression was that, for example, Bundesratin Sommaruga was much stronger and clearer in stating the risks and issues of DSI.
My personal theory is that is one reason why she was so savagely attacked by Koppler recently; he was a poor loser. His comments after the vote were pathetic and Blocher's comparisons with the Nazis....!
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  #1531  
Old 10.05.2016, 18:27
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Re: Repercussions of [immigration limits] Vote Already Starting...

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"unmistakably clear to everyone that the threat of the Bilaterals getting cancelled were clearly voiced" There were many EF people and also Swiss people I know who denied there was a threat of the Bilaterals getting cancelled consequently the message was not strong enough! Claims that the BR lied were, of course, under the belt.
When you have two groups contradicting each other it's not just a question of fighting more, but just as much about people actually listening and thinking.
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"With the DSI it was mostly the population itself that got active. " True but my impression was that, for example, Bundesratin Sommaruga was much stronger and clearer in stating the risks and issues of DSI.
I couldn't say she fought more or less as I watch tv very rarely. However, the two encompassed completely different legal spaces and actors so in that sense it may well be an apples/oranges comparison:

With the MEI/Bilaterals the question was mainly how some third party would react, which is not the Bundesrat's to say or predict, let alone decide. After all the EU has a history of ignoring treaties virtually at will (Maastricht anybody?), only to enforce them at other times.

The DSI on the other hand related to CH only, and left zero room for interpretation. Very much a black-or-white issue.

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My personal theory is that is one reason why she was so savagely attacked by Koppler recently; he was a poor loser. His comments after the vote were pathetic and Blocher's comparisons with the Nazis....!
I missed that, including their clash in the parliament two weeks ago. But I'm sure there's more to come as the SVP needs to keep working foreigner policy and anti-EU. It's clear by now that having two BR has no effect on their style.
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  #1532  
Old 10.05.2016, 19:56
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Re: Repercussions of [immigration limits] Vote Already Starting...

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When you have two groups contradicting each other it's not just a question of fighting more, but just as much about people actually listening and thinking.

I couldn't say she fought more or less as I watch tv very rarely. However, the two encompassed completely different legal spaces and actors so in that sense it may well be an apples/oranges comparison:

With the MEI/Bilaterals the question was mainly how some third party would react, which is not the Bundesrat's to say or predict, let alone decide. After all the EU has a history of ignoring treaties virtually at will (Maastricht anybody?), only to enforce them at other times.

The DSI on the other hand related to CH only, and left zero room for interpretation. Very much a black-or-white issue.


I missed that, including their clash in the parliament two weeks ago. But I'm sure there's more to come as the SVP needs to keep working foreigner policy and anti-EU. It's clear by now that having two BR has no effect on their style.
"It's clear by now that having two BR has no effect on their style." Sad but true! Despite the fact that according to Tagesanzeiger here (German language) Blocher said the SVP should stop creating new initiatives and instead use their strengths of two cabinet ministers and many Parliament seats.

"The DSI on the other hand related to CH only," Not really, it did not comply with the European agreements on human rights so there was a third party element!
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  #1533  
Old 12.05.2016, 10:15
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Re: Repercussions of [immigration limits] Vote Already Starting...

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"The DSI on the other hand related to CH only," Not really, it did not comply with the European agreements on human rights so there was a third party element!
From what I understand, the simplified version of no longer abiding by the HRC is that a country effectively says "we (no longer) abide by the rules set forth in the convention" and that's it. Or don't announce and still no longer abide. Anyway, there's no retaliation as it's not some kind of give-and-take approach like a treaty.
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Old 29.05.2016, 15:36
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Re: Repercussions of [immigration limits] Vote Already Starting...

According to the Basler Zeitung the SVP National Councillor Magdalena Martullo-Blocher wants to implement the MEI without quotas.
Her position is aligned with the FDP and CVP.
Her father Christoph Blocher wants to hold on to the solution with quotas.

Source (German language)

Source2 (German language)

Happy families! I doubt Magdalena will win but wish her luck. Of course she runs a major company so she sees the value of the EU bilaterals.
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  #1535  
Old 30.05.2016, 12:41
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Re: Repercussions of [immigration limits] Vote Already Starting...

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Happy families! I doubt Magdalena will win but wish her luck. Of course she runs a major company so she sees the value of the EU bilaterals.
Same applied to her father though.
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  #1536  
Old 30.05.2016, 14:15
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Re: Repercussions of [immigration limits] Vote Already Starting...

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she sees the value of the EU bilaterals.
I certainly don't.

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  #1537  
Old 28.07.2016, 18:59
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Re: Repercussions of [immigration limits] Vote Already Starting...

http://www.express.co.uk/news/politi...g-Brexit-hopes

It'll be interesting to see how this plays.
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  #1538  
Old 28.07.2016, 20:07
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Re: Repercussions of [immigration limits] Vote Already Starting...

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http://www.express.co.uk/news/politi...g-Brexit-hopes

It'll be interesting to see how this plays.
The EU has also given Spain, Portugal and Italy a free pass for missing their fiscal responsibilities.

This is fishy. They're playing soft knowing full well the level of dislike for the EU at the moment. Even fishier is they actually have the discretion to say yeah or nay on whim.

What exactly do they want? This strikes me as an organization that runs on favours. I'm not sure if the are brown-nosing, or would like others to brown-nose to them.

I suspect they are doing this because they are about to propose something really big - the formation of the United States of Europe.
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  #1539  
Old 28.07.2016, 20:43
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Re: Repercussions of [immigration limits] Vote Already Starting...

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The EU has also given Spain, Portugal and Italy a free pass for missing their fiscal responsibilities.



This is fishy. They're playing soft knowing full well the level of dislike for the EU at the moment. Even fishier is they actually have the discretion to say yeah or nay on whim.



What exactly do they want? This strikes me as an organization that runs on favours. I'm not sure if the are brown-nosing, or would like others to brown-nose to them.



I suspect they are doing this because they are about to propose something really big - the formation of the United States of Europe.


I would not call it a free pass since it is bound to further budget cuts and I would add that it happened already in the past with France and Germany. That's the problem with exceptions, once you give a wild car, everyone expect to get one.
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  #1540  
Old 28.07.2016, 21:42
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Re: Repercussions of [immigration limits] Vote Already Starting...

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I would not call it a free pass since it is bound to further budget cuts and I would add that it happened already in the past with France and Germany. That's the problem with exceptions, once you give a wild car, everyone expect to get one.
I dunno, it seems to technically fit the meaning of the word "corruption".
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