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  #141  
Old 20.02.2014, 00:28
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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No treaty was broken. As the treaty is still in force. The Federal Government got the order to re-negotiate this particular treaty within three years.

Yes, the federal government will have to find reasonable solutions.
The refusal of Switzerland to extend the free movement of people to Croatia is a breach of contract. It will be interesting to see what the EU does once the deadline for this has run out.
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  #142  
Old 20.02.2014, 00:37
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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The EU has a lot of other issues to deal with and setting up negotiations with someone who can not be relied upon to stick to the agreements it made, is probably not very high on their list of priorities. And the limitation you talk of is a fundamental principle for the EU, just as say neutrality is to us. So expecting them to work around that limitation would be like expecting us to give up our neutrality - not happen.



This fund is belonging to EU taxpayers and to expect the EU to pour millions of it into universities where EU academics are restricted from participation in projects is again a non starter - there is no way the EU parliament would accepted it for a start, especially as they are going to the polls in May.
maybe they can do a deal: EU gives up on FMOP, in exchange, Switzerland gives up on direct democracy.
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  #143  
Old 20.02.2014, 02:30
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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I have become oversensitive regarding statements about bilaterals being cancelled for one reason or another.
I acted on reflex there, but that's no excuse.

You are right; my reply did tear the one sentence out of context and as such it was inappropriate. I apologise for that.

I'll try to contribute something useful and constructive as way of apology.

One of the two "flaship" projects awarded a grand by Horizon 2020 is the Human Brain Project which is supervised by the EPFL. Here at least, the funding for the next 30 months is guaranteed.

I did not follow the whole thread, but I assume you were referring to the 4.4 billion CHF that CH pledged to the Horizon 2020 project (115 billion CHF). In this particular case, it would be an interesting signal to put politics over science and happily keep the Swiss contribution. I am not convinced that petty acts of revenge are beneficial to a union that aims to unite Europe in peace. (Yes, that doesn't guarantee anything)

The EU had to react to CH not signing the FMOP with Croatia. Yet they can't completely ignore the cons that are associated with FMOP, especially if they are serious about helping the eastern countries develop instead of "brain-draining" them. It may as well become a core topic during the elections in May. Who knows, maybe it may be reconsidered in the context of the EU.

It's speculation for now, but I believe it is important to consider how the vote pushed FMOP into the forum of discussion and that may well be a change for the better: Many great achievements started with a bold move.

The dice have been cast. All we can do now is hope and work for the best. My 5¢

-rhaetional
About "One of the two "flaship" projects awarded a grant by Horizon 2020 is the Human Brain Project which is supervised by the EPFL. Here at least, the funding for the next 30 months is guaranteed."

The budget is available but exactly how the budget will be used is not finalised; announcements supposed to be later this month.

According to the HBP web site " The ramp-up phase of the project (October 2013 to March 2016) is currently funded (54 M€) by EU Seventh Framework Programme.

The HBP has reserved a portion of its ramp-up phase funding for specific research tasks to be carried out by new beneficiaries who will join the consortium in 2014. These new beneficiaries will be selected from proposals submitted in response to this Competitive Call
. "

It will be interesting to see if any of these new beneficiaries are Swiss; the project itself as mentioned is run out of Lausanne.
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  #144  
Old 20.02.2014, 06:37
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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The refusal of Switzerland to extend the free movement of people to Croatia is a breach of contract. It will be interesting to see what the EU does once the deadline for this has run out.
It is a temporary refusal, until the new law is worked out and agreed with the EU. In reality, the initiative begins to backfire. For the first time ever, the EU now has a quite direct say in a new Swiss law.
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  #145  
Old 20.02.2014, 06:41
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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maybe they can do a deal: EU gives up on FMOP, in exchange, Switzerland gives up on direct democracy.
Swittzerland in the end may give up on the FMOP, under the condition that all new immigrants are listed on a list which will need the approval of the Cantonal electorate
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  #146  
Old 20.02.2014, 06:44
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About "One of the two "flaship" projects awarded a grant by Horizon 2020 is the Human Brain Project which is supervised by the EPFL. Here at least, the funding for the next 30 months is guaranteed."

The budget is available but exactly how the budget will be used is not finalised; announcements supposed to be later this month.

According to the HBP web site " The ramp-up phase of the project (October 2013 to March 2016) is currently funded (54 M€) by EU Seventh Framework Programme.

The HBP has reserved a portion of its ramp-up phase funding for specific research tasks to be carried out by new beneficiaries who will join the consortium in 2014. These new beneficiaries will be selected from proposals submitted in response to this Competitive Call
. "

It will be interesting to see if any of these new beneficiaries are Swiss; the project itself as mentioned is run out of Lausanne.
As I heard/read, some Swiss institution WILL benefit. I don't have any details
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  #147  
Old 20.02.2014, 09:47
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

An update regarding Erasmus, this morning I've got an email from my university's administration, that according to the State Secretariat for Education, Research and Innovation (SERI):

“Swiss applicants can participate unconditionally in ongoing calls on Erasmus+subject to the agreement being signed in time.”

I've tried to find this on SERI's website, though could not find it, maybe it is not written in the English version.
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  #148  
Old 20.02.2014, 12:53
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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The refusal of Switzerland to extend the free movement of people to Croatia is a breach of contract. It will be interesting to see what the EU does once the deadline for this has run out.
Do the existing bilaterals require Switzerland to conclude such a treaty within a given deadline with each new EU country? If so, I get the feeling the EU would already be directly threatening the guillotine.

I skimmed over the freedom of movement treaty quickly and didn't see an obligation to extend it, but I may have missed it or it may be in a different document
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  #149  
Old 20.02.2014, 12:56
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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As I heard/read, some Swiss institution WILL benefit. I don't have any details
According to the HBP web site some of the grants seem to have been given to US and Israel universities; I assume H2020 money in addition to the US Brain project money?

So now I am confused about why Swiss FMOP issues conflicts with H2020; probably somebody here understands better than me?

Also found this in the H2020 rule book "In line with the objectives of international cooperation as set out in Articles 180 and 186 TFEU, the participation of legal entities established in third countries and of international organisations should be promoted."

Bold is mine

Last edited by marton; 20.02.2014 at 13:03. Reason: added more text
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  #150  
Old 20.02.2014, 14:00
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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According to the HBP web site some of the grants seem to have been given to US and Israel universities; I assume H2020 money in addition to the US Brain project money?

So now I am confused about why Swiss FMOP issues conflicts with H2020; probably somebody here understands better than me?

Also found this in the H2020 rule book "In line with the objectives of international cooperation as set out in Articles 180 and 186 TFEU, the participation of legal entities established in third countries and of international organisations should be promoted."

Bold is mine

The grants are not given to individual universities, they are given to research projects. These projects have to fulfil certain criteria, one of which is the involvement of at least 3 EU or associate research facilities.

If a US university was collaborating on a project with, say 4 EU universities, it would be able to recieve some of this funding, but it would come indirectly, from the EU team leading the research. The project has to be led by the EU universities.

Between the EU and the US (and i presume, the EU and Israel), there is an ESTA requirement (or equivelent), but no particular hindrance to movement, and importantly, no limit.
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  #151  
Old 20.02.2014, 14:08
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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Do the existing bilaterals require Switzerland to conclude such a treaty within a given deadline with each new EU country? If so, I get the feeling the EU would already be directly threatening the guillotine.

I skimmed over the freedom of movement treaty quickly and didn't see an obligation to extend it, but I may have missed it or it may be in a different document
The bilaterals themselves are not threatened directly by the quotas.

If the decision is taken that the quotas contradict FMOP (not likely until the law is made from this referendum, up to three years away), then the FMOP treaty will be cancelled. Only then, because of the guillotine clause, will the bilaterals be affected (and even then, only if the agreements are not amended as a result of negotiations and other concessions).

There isnt an obligation to extend the FMOP chronologically, but there is a requirement that the FMOP is extended to all new EU members (after the maximum restriction time for those members has passed) while it is in force. It was this requrement which was not met when CH refused to remove restrictions on Croatia. Thus, this now risks the whole FMOP treaty, which in turn risks the Bilaterals.

Hope that makes sense. Its like a set of precariously placed dominos right now.

Personally, i think the EU will wait until the government actually starts drafting the law (which will necessitate consultation with the EU) before they start using the G word. This may well be much sooner than three years away.
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  #152  
Old 20.02.2014, 14:13
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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About "One of the two "flaship" projects awarded a grant by Horizon 2020 is the Human Brain Project which is supervised by the EPFL. Here at least, the funding for the next 30 months is guaranteed."

The budget is available but exactly how the budget will be used is not finalised; announcements supposed to be later this month.

According to the HBP web site " The ramp-up phase of the project (October 2013 to March 2016) is currently funded (54 M€) by EU Seventh Framework Programme.

The HBP has reserved a portion of its ramp-up phase funding for specific research tasks to be carried out by new beneficiaries who will join the consortium in 2014. These new beneficiaries will be selected from proposals submitted in response to this Competitive Call. "

It will be interesting to see if any of these new beneficiaries are Swiss; the project itself as mentioned is run out of Lausanne.
That means that the ramp-up phase is fully funded, and will see no restriction in budget. That 54million Euros will come from the 7th Framework, which is the predecessor of H2020. Thus, the beneficiariesw you mention are not affected.
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  #153  
Old 20.02.2014, 16:23
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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That means that the ramp-up phase is fully funded, and will see no restriction in budget. That 54million Euros will come from the 7th Framework, which is the predecessor of H2020. Thus, the beneficiariesw you mention are not affected.
About "Thus, the beneficiaries you mention are not affected" - the names of the new beneficiaries are not yet formally announced although there were leaks.
Will be interesting to see if the list of new beneficiaries when announced is the same as currently expected.

I was not talking about "restriction in budget"; I was talking about how will the budget be applied.
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  #154  
Old 22.02.2014, 09:18
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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Swittzerland in the end may give up on the FMOP, under the condition that all new immigrants are listed on a list which will need the approval of the Cantonal electorate
Is this Swiss humor?
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  #155  
Old 22.02.2014, 10:58
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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Is this Swiss humor?
It does sound familiar, doesn't it? 1933, Berlin?
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  #156  
Old 22.02.2014, 11:56
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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It does sound familiar, doesn't it? 1933, Berlin?
Except that the Cantonal citizens will have the right to "kumulieren/panaschieren" which means that they can delete persons from the list and replace by others from the list who then will get two YES votes

And potential new immigrants will place adverts in local papers declaring to be ready to do two years of voluntary military service and to work as votes-counters at elections, thereby multiplying their chances to be approved.

"NO" voters at the other hand will have to do for 4 days work not done due to lack of staff

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  #157  
Old 23.02.2014, 15:49
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

Couple of articles in Sonntags Blick today

One said this result will make life easier for foreign robbers and criminal tourists due to the risk of reduced cooperation with EU police and shared databases; see here.

The other by Hans Hess talks about thousands of job losses but I do not find this in the online Blick.
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  #158  
Old 23.02.2014, 17:52
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

FDP & CVP & EconomieSuisse will present compromise proposals which will be acceptable to both the EU and the Initiative supporters

the steps taken by the EU against Switzerland in regard to the "Horizon 2020" would primarily have hit EU citizens in Switzerland and not so much CH citizens

thanks to the Portuguese-British "Coimbra" Students Exchange Program, possible problems with the Erasmus thing would not have much effect on Switzerland
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Old 23.02.2014, 19:55
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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FDP & CVP & EconomieSuisse will present compromise proposals which will be acceptable to both the EU and the Initiative supporters

the steps taken by the EU against Switzerland in regard to the "Horizon 2020" would primarily have hit EU citizens in Switzerland and not so much CH citizens

thanks to the Portuguese-British "Coimbra" Students Exchange Program, possible problems with the Erasmus thing would not have much effect on Switzerland

???

Coimbra is very limited, also in funding. It is not comparable to Erasmus+.

Only people in Geneva will be able to apply, furthermore, as only Geneva is enrolled in this program.
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Old 23.02.2014, 20:28
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???

Coimbra is very limited, also in funding. It is not comparable to Erasmus+.

Only people in Geneva will be able to apply, furthermore, as only Geneva is enrolled in this program.
It in fact is up to the EU. According to universities in Zürich and Basel and Bern, their participation in ERASMUS is secured and settled. If not, they may become forced to join Coimbra which might give them at the Coimbra-program a boost

And links of CH universities to universities in the USA and elsewhere might become more important in case Mr Barroso wants to play ugly. But right now people apparently are optimistic that the problems can be solved
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