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Old 17.02.2014, 23:21
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Repercussions of [immigration limits] Vote Already Starting...

Doubtless there is more to come, but already the EU has shut down talks re. the Horizon 2020 and Erasmus+ programs.

Apparently the Swiss government and businesses were right about how bad the effects would be... I guess the question now is whether EU countries will be intimidated or inspired by the Swiss taking control of immigration policy.

http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/science_...l?cid=37974638
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Old 18.02.2014, 08:37
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

That's life. Every decision has its negative and positive sides. For me the threats of the EU simply show how little understanding they have of democracy as we practice it.


Our politicians haven't been doing a good job either - it's time they stood up and said clearly what the Swiss people want and how representative they are of most of Europe.
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Old 18.02.2014, 08:42
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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That's life. Every decision has its negative and positive sides. For me the threats of the EU simply show how little understanding they have of democracy as we practice it.


Our politicians haven't been doing a good job either - it's time they stood up and said clearly what the Swiss people want and how representative they are of most of Europe.
They are not threatening, they are just applying the clauses of the contracts you signed. It is international law, full stop.

Repeating it as a dogma will not make the EU the bad guy this time.
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Old 18.02.2014, 08:50
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

This free movement of goods, people and services: all I see is that it is easier for people to move in / out of Switzerland. The other stuff, example I buy something in Germany, I still pay extra tax on it. Yes, yes I can claim the VAT back in Germany, but sorting that rigmarol ends up costing more than my time is worth. And one still pays the post for them having a look inside when it is clearly marked on the box what is in it.

Also what is it with the Swiss UPS sending drivers out on COD with no float? I mean WTF? That is seriously dense.
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Old 18.02.2014, 13:37
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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Doubtless there is more to come, but already the EU has shut down talks re. the Horizon 2020 and Erasmus+ programs.

Apparently the Swiss government and businesses were right about how bad the effects would be... I guess the question now is whether EU countries will be intimidated or inspired by the Swiss taking control of immigration policy.

http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/science_...l?cid=37974638
Bad sad regrettable. But I just this morning heard a university chap (Dozent) telling friends that professors are already in touch with colleagues in the USA, Canada, Australia, Japan and India in order to establish a better co-operation with those countries in regard to students exchanges and scientific programs. He stated that time is running short and something needs to be done immediately

Let's add that the Cantons of Basel-Stadt and Zürich and the City of Bern had voted against the initiative. Nobody in Basel and Zürich wants to get between the "hammers" of the Blocherites and the EU -ers
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Old 18.02.2014, 13:45
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

It was expected to be coming. One can only hope that some insightful minds from both EU as well as CH will sit together and reach certain viable consensus.

Why EU didn't give them time to rethink it, dwell on their mistakes to find solution for mutual benefits. You need to take time with CH (as they are not that fast when it comes to important decisions) and don't rush ...

The Swiss Business Federation, economiesuisse, said it regretted the EU's "hasty" decision to suspend future bilateral negoatiations before the Swiss government had a chance to outline concrete plans after the vote.

"All improvements to [EU] market access are now blocked until further notice," the federation bemoaned. Swiss research insitutions and many companies "would have greatly benefited" from enhanced cooperation in the fields of education and innovation, the lobby group added in a statement.
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Old 18.02.2014, 14:34
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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It was expected to be coming. One can only hope that some insightful minds from both EU as well as CH will sit together and reach certain viable consensus.

Why EU didn't give them time to rethink it, dwell on their mistakes to find solution for mutual benefits. You need to take time with CH (as they are not that fast when it comes to important decisions) and don't rush ...

I think the sitting down of the insightful minds is exactly what has been frozen.

The EU didnt give them time because they dont have time - Universities are already applying for large chunks of that money, and final contracts need to be signed in 7 months. Thats not that long.

Simply put, this was the first item that required cooperation between CH and EU, and with the vote, that cooperation has become a lot more difficult. Over the next few months, this will happen again and again with other things, as they come up for discussion. Its just chronological.

I guess you could say that this is one instance when the slow direct democracy system does not work in Switzerlands favour.
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Old 18.02.2014, 15:19
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

Relax!

Switzerland needs the EU and the EU needs Switzerland... both will have to find a compromise, we just have to wait and see.
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Old 18.02.2014, 15:24
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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Relax!

Switzerland needs the EU and the EU needs Switzerland... both will have to find a compromise, we just have to wait and see.
Except one needs the other far more than the other needs the one.

One more thing though...no matter what happens, neither the EU nor Switzerland win. They both lose, in different ways. Who loses more, is open to debate but the facts tell one story.
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Old 18.02.2014, 15:49
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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Except one needs the other far more than the other needs the one.

One more thing though...no matter what happens, neither the EU nor Switzerland win. They both lose, in different ways. Who loses more, is open to debate but the facts tell one story.
I am no expert to conclude who needs who more, politics is more about what goes behind the scenes more than what we (public) see.

Now I recall the USA-Switzerland issue that occurred couple of years ago, where Switzerland had to eventually "compromise" and do a "limited give away" of its historical banking secrecy, so again we will have to wait and see...maybe it is not as bad as it seems right now.
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Old 18.02.2014, 15:53
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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I am no expert to conclude who needs who more, politics is more about what goes behind the scenes more than what we (public) see.

Now I recall the USA-Switzerland issue that occurred couple of years ago, where Switzerland had to eventually "compromise" and do a "limited give away" of its historical banking secrecy, so again we will have to wait and see...maybe it is not as bad as it seems right now.

True. I can see all sorts of loopholes and exceptions.

That said, that 'limited give away' was anything but limited.
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Old 18.02.2014, 17:26
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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It was expected to be coming. One can only hope that some insightful minds from both EU as well as CH will sit together and reach certain viable consensus.

Why EU didn't give them time to rethink it, dwell on their mistakes to find solution for mutual benefits. You need to take time with CH (as they are not that fast when it comes to important decisions) and don't rush ...

The Swiss Business Federation, economiesuisse, said it regretted the EU's "hasty" decision to suspend future bilateral negoatiations before the Swiss government had a chance to outline concrete plans after the vote.

"All improvements to [EU] market access are now blocked until further notice," the federation bemoaned. Swiss research insitutions and many companies "would have greatly benefited" from enhanced cooperation in the fields of education and innovation, the lobby group added in a statement.
EconomieSuisse did not make a mistake. They opposed the initiative right from the beginning. What now happens is exactly what EconomieSuisse predicted
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Old 18.02.2014, 17:38
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

I think the initiative was badly framed.

If it had been presented as a vote to "cap the maximum population" for environmental reasons rather than the "us vs. foreigners" argument, the uproar would have been avoided.

Everyone agrees Switzerland is a small country, with an even smaller habitable area, and that resources are limited. I would have preferred a well-presented "green" argument which specified a maximum sustainable population while stipulating that new EU workers would continue to be allowed in based on natural fluction and people reaching retirement age in the job market.

I think the green argument makes perfect sense, and that a democratic country should be allowed to determine it's own maximum population.
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Old 18.02.2014, 17:45
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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I think the initiative was badly framed.

If it had been presented as a vote to "cap the maximum population" for environmental reasons rather than the "us vs. foreigners" argument, the uproar would have been avoided.

Everyone agrees Switzerland is a small country, with an even smaller habitable area, and that resources are limited. I would have preferred a well-presented "green" argument which specified a maximum sustainable population while stipulating that new EU workers would continue to be allowed in based on natural fluction and people reaching retirement age in the job market.

I think the green argument makes perfect sense, and that a democratic country should be allowed to determine it's own maximum population.
True. It would pass, too, no doubt.

But this is the SVP we're talking about. Despite their colour being green, i dont think their intentions really are.
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Old 18.02.2014, 17:55
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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Our politicians haven't been doing a good job either
I'm not Swiss, neither are many others here, so what's with this "our" politicians?
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Old 18.02.2014, 18:23
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One can only hope that some insightful minds from both EU as well as CH will sit together and reach certain viable consensus.
One would hope so, but I am not that optimistic.

Switzerland is not an island, no matter what people like to believe. The EU needs CH, and CH needs the EU, period. We all belong to a global economy, not some kind of 1800s isolationist nightmare!

In my dream world, we would have none of this BS of borders, visas, permits, quotas, etc. People would go (or stay) where the market needs/wants them.
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Old 18.02.2014, 18:30
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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True. It would pass, too, no doubt.

But this is the SVP we're talking about. Despite their colour being green, i dont think their intentions really are.
Somebody put everybody in this situation, same people should take everybody out of this situation instead of ...

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Old 18.02.2014, 18:31
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I think the initiative was badly framed.

If it had been presented as a vote to "cap the maximum population" for environmental reasons rather than the "us vs. foreigners" argument, the uproar would have been avoided.

Everyone agrees Switzerland is a small country, with an even smaller habitable area, and that resources are limited. I would have preferred a well-presented "green" argument which specified a maximum sustainable population while stipulating that new EU workers would continue to be allowed in based on natural fluction and people reaching retirement age in the job market.

I think the green argument makes perfect sense, and that a democratic country should be allowed to determine it's own maximum population.
I am not really sure if capping population mobility (since that's what the end of bilaterals means, as an effect on local population) can be interpreted as green. Anything would have been more palatable, than it has been presented. I think it was that simple xenophobic argument that gave EU no choice but most probably follow up with their repercussions. It was a populist campaign, damaging image of CH, unfortunately, and most of all, at the end it's stopping labor, research and academic exchange. This exchange has so far been two way, in and out. The flood of foreign cerebral power in the academia did not necessarily mean stealing local's chance to shine, but it added quality to compete with or learn from. Most of us here hang out with locals who have had their taste of work/life abroad, and many times it was EU, n'est pas. I think the whole situation will not be as critical as it has turned out, the attention SVP got by this was calculated and I think quite smartly.

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Bad sad regrettable. But I just this morning heard a university chap (Dozent) telling friends that professors are already in touch with colleagues in the USA, Canada, Australia, Japan and India in order to establish a better co-operation with those countries in regard to students exchanges and scientific programs.
You mean to prioritize now the non EU profs? I don't really get what you wrote, excuse my afterwork thickness. Unfortunately, local Slavic Studies Depts will most probably not be happy about having to outsource profs from non EU uni Depts, and so on. History, lit, other area based humanities, etc. Brains are not interchangeable. If EU won't provide those, locals will have it sometimes hard to fish out elsewhere what they need for their specific needs here and do not have it. Not mentioning specific projects that are already ongoing and have been financed. The fact EU responded quickly is just to make the reaction here faster, so the projects and finances do not get lost. It's a push for protection and exemptions. It's not a threat, me thinks.

Scratch all the panic, however, if the referendum was just a mere rhetorics. Since exceptions, post referendum governmental adjustments, etc. are going to cost tax payers here their kidneys and more, they do not seem to mind and exchange this wad of cash for the act of free expression. And a follow up corrective gov paperwork. Formal groupes de travail to fix what has been messed up at the 1st place are extremely costly, but if a country has the means, then voila.
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Old 18.02.2014, 18:54
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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One would hope so, but I am not that optimistic.

Switzerland is not an island, no matter what people like to believe. The EU needs CH, and CH needs the EU, period. We all belong to a global economy, not some kind of 1800s isolationist nightmare!

In my dream world, we would have none of this BS of borders, visas, permits, quotas, etc. People would go (or stay) where the market needs/wants them.
Life is not a fairy tale. It would be nice to live in The Shire but unfortunately dark forces from Mordor came down upon us looking for the ring.

Due to bilateral agreements and economic matrices one cannot just say plainly NO (or YES ) nowadays. There are treaties signed and consequences. I'm closing the border, cheers everyone

Globalization creates uncontrolled free movements and time has come to handle it.
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Old 18.02.2014, 19:52
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

GB £ is up on the Swiss franc over the last year; makes my pension look healthier in CHF.
If the Swiss economy does suffer then should be even better for the GB £?
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