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  #281  
Old 29.01.2016, 15:01
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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That is a misrepresented hyperbole. The leniency occurs during sentencing, not during adjudication. The courts often find criminals guilty, yet lays the cost and burden of the crime back onto the community. I'm in favor of the community, not the criminal found guilty.


"yet lays the cost and burden of the crime back onto the community. "
What on earth are you talking about? If you cannot explain then perhaps give an example?


BTW, The most costly burden for the community is when a criminal is jailed.
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  #282  
Old 29.01.2016, 15:01
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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That is a misrepresented hyperbole. The leniency occurs during sentencing, not during adjudication.
So given your lack of response to my pointing out that you have failed to debunk the single infraction scenario and have simply dismissed it based upon your opinion at most means you have conceded that point?
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  #283  
Old 29.01.2016, 15:04
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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So given your lack of response to my pointing out that you have failed to debunk the single infraction scenario and have simply dismissed it based upon your opinion at most means you have conceded that point?
Not at all, as you haven't provided a case of a single infraction deportation other than a theory. There may be cases of single infractions that deserve deportation. Premeditated murder would be a valid one.
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  #284  
Old 29.01.2016, 15:12
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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Not at all, as you haven't provided a case of a single infraction deportation other than a theory. There may be cases of single infractions that deserve deportation. Premeditated murder would be a valid one.

I repeat
"the initiative you claim to have read clearly lists the cases where a single infraction means compulsory deportation, no appeal allowed?


You did read it didn't you!
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  #285  
Old 29.01.2016, 15:19
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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Not at all, as you haven't provided a case of a single infraction deportation other than a theory.
I haven't provided anything - I'm only challenging your dismissal. Instead, others have cited the initiative itself which "clearly lists the cases where a single infraction means compulsory deportation", as marton has just repeated. What have you offered that counters this?
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There may be cases of single infractions that deserve deportation. Premeditated murder would be a valid one.
Totally agree. Where's that written, or that other infractions require more than one conviction? You can show that, then you've every right to accuse others of scaremongering, otherwise it's just hot air.
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  #286  
Old 29.01.2016, 16:21
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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I repeat
"the initiative you claim to have read clearly lists the cases where a single infraction means compulsory deportation, no appeal allowed?


You did read it didn't you!
I think he did. But considering that in his posts would mean to stop trolling.
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  #287  
Old 29.01.2016, 18:34
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

There is a long article in the Beobachter about this initiative.

After committing a very serious offence, rape murder, excessive driving, social security fraud, & the foreign criminal could be deported back to his home country, immediately after serving the sentence in prison.

If an foreign offender commits two medium offences within 10 years, he could also be deported after completing the punishment: for theft, fighting, fast driving etc.

I can't translate all this! I suggest you copy and paste paragraphs into Google translate.

http://www.beobachter.ch/justiz-beho...r-bleiberecht/

5 case studies
Case 1: Chilean, born 26 in Switzerland, fails to report income when unemployed
Case 2: Macedonian, 30, since 1989 in Switzerland, reckless driver with fatal accident, various minor offences
Case 3: Turk, 53, since 1980 in Switzerland, 46'000 francs debt, three fines
Case 4: Croat, 22, since 1996 in Switzerland, a burglary
Case 5: Serb, 32, based in Switzerland, two short sentences, obtained 90,000 francs in welfare funds since 1993
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  #288  
Old 29.01.2016, 18:47
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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There is a long article in the Beobachter about this initiative.

After committing a very serious offence, rape murder, excessive driving, social security fraud, & the foreign criminal could be deported back to his home country, immediately after serving the sentence in prison.

If an foreign offender commits two medium offences within 10 years, he could also be deported after completing the punishment: for theft, fighting, fast driving etc.

I can't translate all this! I suggest you copy and paste paragraphs into Google translate.

http://www.beobachter.ch/justiz-beho...r-bleiberecht/

5 case studies
Case 1: Chilean, born 26 in Switzerland, fails to report income when unemployed
Case 2: Macedonian, 30, since 1989 in Switzerland, reckless driver with fatal accident, various minor offences
Case 3: Turk, 53, since 1980 in Switzerland, 46'000 francs debt, three fines
Case 4: Croat, 22, since 1996 in Switzerland, a burglary
Case 5: Serb, 32, based in Switzerland, two short sentences, obtained 90,000 francs in welfare funds since 1993
Thanks, useful post
My only comment is that the way social security fraud is defined in the initiative could mean a deportation for a single minor fraud; or did I not translate this point correctly?
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  #289  
Old 29.01.2016, 20:45
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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Thanks, useful post
My only comment is that the way social security fraud is defined in the initiative could mean a deportation for a single minor fraud; or did I not translate this point correctly?
Yes that is correct. Any fraud against the Social, even keeping money not due to you (!!), can mean prosecution and deportation.

I find it strange that cheating the tax man is not listed as a serious crime, maybe because there wouldn't be anyone left to run the utilities... or maybe because the "right wingers" are doing just that.
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  #290  
Old 29.01.2016, 21:14
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

Hear hear Sbrinz- geese and ganders- and complete disproportion.

But as I enjoy this picture so much, I'll post it here too, enjoy:


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  #291  
Old 29.01.2016, 21:14
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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Yes that is correct. Any fraud against the Social, even keeping money not due to you (!!), can mean prosecution and deportation.

I find it strange that cheating the tax man is not listed as a serious crime, maybe because there wouldn't be anyone left to run the utilities... or maybe because the "right wingers" are doing just that.

"cheating the tax man is not listed as a serious crime" indeed, why wipe out your majority of supporters
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  #292  
Old 29.01.2016, 23:28
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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There is a long article in the Beobachter about this initiative.
[...]
http://www.beobachter.ch/justiz-beho...r-bleiberecht/
Watch out!

This can be quite misleading as the article is from 2010, thus on the Ausschaffungsinitiative but not on the Dursetzungsinitiative that will be voted on next month.

Last edited by Urs Max; 29.01.2016 at 23:39.
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  #293  
Old 30.01.2016, 10:11
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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I haven't provided anything - I'm only challenging your dismissal. Instead, others have cited the initiative itself which "clearly lists the cases where a single infraction means compulsory deportation", as marton has just repeated. What have you offered that counters this?

Totally agree. Where's that written, or that other infractions require more than one conviction? You can show that, then you've every right to accuse others of scaremongering, otherwise it's just hot air.
I could agree that the initiative text was written to the point that it is susceptible to misrepresentation and hyperbole. That is what the campaign against it is about at this point. The SVP definitely took a more aggressive and defiant tone in this initiative that could backfire, if the voters suffer memory loss. But avid voters know the history and conversation around this. This is part of a conversation between voters and government. It is a follow-up to the failures of government to implement the original Ausschaffungsinitiative. In its own, this Durchsetzungsinitiative would look appear over the top. In context to the conversation, it is a followup rebuttal.

To give you an idea, the Auschaffungsinitiative was only applied in 2% of the possible cases of foreigner crimes. And its application varied wildly from canton to canton. For all intent and purpose, it has practically been ignored by the Cantons, hence this initiative is a response to it.

I think the flaw in this initiative is its susceptibility to misrepresentation. Hence the campaign against it will scaremonger about foreigners who steal apples or make mistakes about social benefits. Note though that while the same language appeared in the Ausschaffungsinitiative, they were never really applied in court cases.

As a voter, I would make a personal value judgment call on this, as I would think most voters do. For me, I would assess the Risk, Impact and Benefits of it; compared it with and without.

In a scenario with this initiative as law, I see the risks as miscarriage of justice by disproportionate punishment that might cause someone to be deported. The benefit would be a deterrent to crime and the lowering of crimes by criminals. Statistically, this implies the lowering of victims of crime as well.

In a scenario with this initiative being voted down, I see the risk of continued or increase levels of crime by a foreigner population that is also increasing. The impact is also more crime victims, and increased animosity towards foreigners. The benefit there is a more lenient, "humane" and fair system to suspected criminals.

For me, the biggest risk/impact equation is unfairly deported foreigners vs. more victims of crime. Personally, I don't see a deportation as worse than being victimized by crime.

As for the benefit equation, lower crime rates and less victims of crimes vs. more humane treatment of criminals and a more lenient criminal justice system. I would still lean on the side of less crime and less victims.

I see here a value judgment call by voters. In this equation, I would still vote for it while blaming the SVP for writing it so badly ambiguous that it is susceptible misrepresentation. If it passes, good. If it fails, I'll blame the SVP, and hope the FDP will pick up the issue with a better proposition.
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  #294  
Old 30.01.2016, 10:21
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

"I could agree that the initiative text was written to the point that it is susceptible to misrepresentation and hyperbole"
Complete rubbish, the initiative is very very clearly written; obviously lawyers were involved.
Who are you agreeing with that it was not clearly written; I have never seen such a claim!


If you believe this was not clear then please give an example of such lack of clarity.


I assume I will not receive any examples only the usual useless tirade?
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  #295  
Old 30.01.2016, 10:26
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

"As for the benefit equation, lower crime rates and less victims of crimes" Do you have a credible source for this?
How do you see this working?


How do you see this working as a deterrent when 60+% of foreign criminals are here illegally and are anyway under threat of deportation.
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  #296  
Old 30.01.2016, 10:27
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

"the Auschaffungsinitiative was only applied in 2% of the possible cases of foreigner crimes"
Did you invent this number?


There are no official figures on deportations
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Old 30.01.2016, 11:44
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

From todays Tagesanzeiger here (in German language).

The Bundesrat have recognised that this initiative is aimed at destroying the human rights convention and have announced that whatever the result of the vote they will not cancel the Swiss participation in the Human Rights Convention.

Clearly they see the risk and they also failed to understand Phos's post, I quote "I don't think you legislate away basic human rights. This is Switzerland, the home of the Geneva Convention."
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  #298  
Old 30.01.2016, 11:51
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

Ultimately, it comes down to how many people are going to vote and that includes everyone on this thread who can vote. This initiative is wrong on so many levels and twisting it around over and over again is still not going to make it right. Take a moment to think about what kind of country you want to live in and how many friends you have who could be adversely affected by all of this. It's easy to say "well, it won't effect me.." and you can be dead sure it won't? If anything that is being written about the initiative is true, then with the 2 strikes and you are out principle in play it will effect more people than imagined. Do we need to be scared of this initiative? Ultimately, yes. Be afraid. The SVP has a lot more tricks up their sleeves and I don't think we've seen the worst of it yet. Get out there and vote. Set a precedent, make noise. Whining and complaining won't help when the outcome could have been tipped by votes.
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  #299  
Old 30.01.2016, 12:32
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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I could agree that the initiative text was written to the point that it is susceptible to misrepresentation and hyperbole.
Bullshit.

The Initiative contains a conclusive list of crimes and offenses it applies to, and that will automatically have the culprit lose their residence permit. There's zero room for misinterpretation.
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It is a follow-up to the failures of government to implement the original Ausschaffungsinitiative. In its own, this Durchsetzungsinitiative would look appear over the top. In context to the conversation, it is a followup rebuttal.
Bullshit.

Bundesrat (one year) and Parliament (2.5 years if there's no Gegenvorschlag) together have up to 3.5 years to decide on the law to implement the Initiative. SVP however launched the Durchsetzungsinitiative after two years.
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To give you an idea, the Auschaffungsinitiative was only applied in 2% of the possible cases of foreigner crimes. And its application varied wildly from canton to canton. For all intent and purpose, it has practically been ignored by the Cantons, hence this initiative is a response to it.
Liar.

The law that would enact(word?) the Ausschaffungsinitiative has been agreed upon last spring. However, it's not active law because of the Durchsetzungsinitiative, if the latter is denied the law will immediately become active.
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I think the flaw in this initiative is its susceptibility to misrepresentation.
Bullshit.

There's zero ambiguity (see first rebuttal).
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In a scenario with this initiative as law, I see the risks as miscarriage of justice by disproportionate punishment that might cause someone to be deported. The benefit would be a deterrent to crime and the lowering of crimes by criminals. Statistically, this implies the lowering of victims of crime as well.
Bullshit.

If harder punishment actually reduced crime rate, murder rates in countries that know and apply the death sentence should be much lower than in countries that don't. Reality however is the exact inverse.
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Old 30.01.2016, 12:35
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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Watch out!

This can be quite misleading as the article is from 2010, thus on the Ausschaffungsinitiative but not on the Dursetzungsinitiative that will be voted on next month.
If you read it you will see it has been edited to include the proposed initiative.
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