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  #21  
Old 12.01.2016, 20:11
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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...deportation is only permitted when the criminal's home country is stable, and he will not be discriminated in his home country, e.g. if he is an Islamic homosexual he will be allowed to stay here.
So, discrimination against people based on sexuality and nationality.
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  #22  
Old 12.01.2016, 20:22
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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So, discrimination against people based on sexuality and nationality.
Welcome to Switzerland. From requiring your picture and age on your CV to women getting 50% of their pension if they are married.
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  #23  
Old 13.01.2016, 09:10
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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So, discrimination against people based on sexuality and nationality.
Not at all: lesbianism is also homosexuality, nationality covers all nations.

I wrote (Or intended to mean) the deportation would not be implemented if the deportee would be in personal danger in the new country. Either due to a war situation there or due to the deportees religion or sexuality.
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  #24  
Old 13.01.2016, 12:54
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

The first problem i have with this law is that it includes "put other people lives in danger", which means that one is deportable due to an accident while drunk, or did something really stupid. It may be a crime but expelling someone for doign something without criminal intent is a bit much.

The other common critique is that second/third generation foreigners are deported to a country they don't know much about anymore. Of course you could ask why they're not naturalized yet but it would have made sense to put a 10-year of continuous residence clause or something to solve this, I believe the phantomatic imported criminal would commit a crime in these 10 years.

And then american-style mandatory sentencing is not constitutional because it's not proportional. If they limited themselves murderers ok, but for other crimes circumstances can definitely matter, e.g. for drug offenses.

Small time criminals hardly get any prison time so the 3 years thing isn't that important imho.
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Old 13.01.2016, 13:13
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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The first problem i have with this law is that it includes "put other people lives in danger", which means that one is deportable due to an accident while drunk, or did something really stupid. It may be a crime but expelling someone for doign something without criminal intent is a bit much.

The other common critique is that second/third generation foreigners are deported to a country they don't know much about anymore. Of course you could ask why they're not naturalized yet but it would have made sense to put a 10-year of continuous residence clause or something to solve this, I believe the phantomatic imported criminal would commit a crime in these 10 years.

And then american-style mandatory sentencing is not constitutional because it's not proportional. If they limited themselves murderers ok, but for other crimes circumstances can definitely matter, e.g. for drug offenses.

Small time criminals hardly get any prison time so the 3 years thing isn't that important imho.
From what I have seen and heard about the Swiss judicial system, they tend to sentence on a much more lenient end. This referendum is part of the response to such decision, providing sentencing guidelines. I believe it would still be adjudicated by a lenient judge.

Another problem that is underneath this is the cost of maintaining prisoners. I have heard of some communities having to accommodate a repeat foreign offender in their communities to such a cost as they had to dramatically raise their taxes just for this one repeat offender. I can imagine how these are the kinds of voters that will vote for these. Unless situations like these are addressed, the calls for anti-crime measures will only get louder.
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  #26  
Old 13.01.2016, 13:36
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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The first problem i have with this law is that it includes "put other people lives in danger", which means that one is deportable due to an accident while drunk, or did something really stupid. It may be a crime but expelling someone for doign something without criminal intent is a bit much.
Art. 129 Swiss Criminal Code?
https://www.admin.ch/opc/en/classifi...ndex.html#a129

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Endangering life

Any person who unscrupulously places another in immediate life-threatening danger is liable to a custodial sentence not exceeding five years or to a monetary penalty.
the only other place where "unscrupulous" is used in the Code is for murder to differentiate it from manslaughter.

Art. 129 is not about doing something stupid or driving drunk. Is about doing something willingfully very stupid which is just short of attempted murder. There must be criminal intend.

Like:
http://www.servat.unibe.ch/dfr//bger..._352-2011.html

but also for sudden breaking on the Autobahn just "to teach the other a lesson"
http://www.servat.unibe.ch/dfr//bger..._127-2007.html

or willingfully crashing into another car
http://relevancy.bger.ch/php/clir/ht...F133-IV-1%3Ade
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  #27  
Old 13.01.2016, 13:45
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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women getting 50% of their pension if they are married.
It not just women who get 50% of their husband's pension, men get 50% of the wife's pension as well.

And, of course, only if they don't have separated assets.

Tom
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  #28  
Old 13.01.2016, 13:49
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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From what I have seen and heard about the Swiss judicial system, they tend to sentence on a much more lenient end. This referendum is part of the response to such decision, providing sentencing guidelines. I believe it would still be adjudicated by a lenient judge.

Another problem that is underneath this is the cost of maintaining prisoners. I have heard of some communities having to accommodate a repeat foreign offender in their communities to such a cost as they had to dramatically raise their taxes just for this one repeat offender. I can imagine how these are the kinds of voters that will vote for these. Unless situations like these are addressed, the calls for anti-crime measures will only get louder.
The initiative is about deporting people after they complete their prison sentences.
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  #29  
Old 13.01.2016, 16:17
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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Weakness of the whole idea is that there is no way to force another country to accept deportees; one could understand their reluctance to accept convicted criminals.
Reluctance would be for exactly the same reasons that they would not be wanted to stay here?
According to today's Tagesanzeiger there are currently 4,800 people who should have been deported but cannot be so because of various reasons; mostly because their home country will not accept them!
I suppose they are all sitting around at our expense
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  #30  
Old 13.01.2016, 21:45
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

This has been in place in the UK since 2007, it's just none carried out much so doesn't get much media attention. France has the same thing but goes one step further - you don't have to have committed a crime. Switzerland is just catching up with the others.
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  #31  
Old 13.01.2016, 21:49
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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This has been in place in the UK since 2007, it's just none carried out much so doesn't get much media attention. France has the same thing but goes one step further - you don't have to have committed a crime. Switzerland is just catching up with the others.

Is it the same in the UK, you can be deported even if you were born in the UK?
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  #32  
Old 14.01.2016, 12:24
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

It looks like you can be if you're a child of the person being deported, but I don't think 2nd or 3rd generation passport holders can be.

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/immigrat...13-deportation
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/...n-of-criminals
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  #33  
Old 14.01.2016, 12:35
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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It looks like you can be if you're a child of the person being deported, but I don't think 2nd or 3rd generation passport holders can be.

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/immigrat...13-deportation
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/...n-of-criminals

This link below defines British citizens so it looks like the usual case of children born in the UK from at least one parent who was "settled here" can not be deported.
It gets more complicated for people born before 1983.


Unlike Switzerland where people born here from "foreign" parents can be deported unless they have converted to Swiss citizens.
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  #34  
Old 14.01.2016, 12:50
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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The first problem i have with this law is that it includes "put other people lives in danger", which means that one is deportable due to an accident while drunk, or did something really stupid. It may be a crime but expelling someone for doign something without criminal intent is a bit much.
My problem with the same bit is a completely different one: Either you want to throw out criminal foreigners or you don't. But what the SVP wants is to throw out small time criminal foreigners who might rob you on the street, but keep the ones who have money. From Russian oligarchs with convictions for fraud or tax evasion over bankers with all sorts of financial crime track records to anyone who is corrupt, say the executives of international sport organizations.
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Old 14.01.2016, 13:07
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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My problem with the same bit is a completely different one: Either you want to throw out criminal foreigners or you don't. But what the SVP wants is to throw out small time criminal foreigners who might rob you on the street, but keep the ones who have money. From Russian oligarchs with convictions for fraud or tax evasion over bankers with all sorts of financial crime track records to anyone who is corrupt, say the executives of international sport organizations.
Well, at least the later provides some kind of value.
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Old 14.01.2016, 13:12
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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Well, at least the later provides some kind of value.
Sure. But then be open and honest about it and say it. Don't pretend to be on a moral high ground if all you care about is money.
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Old 14.01.2016, 13:17
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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Sure. But then be open and honest about it and say it. Don't pretend to be on a moral high ground if all you care about is money.
I think its about the violent crime, and the cost of maintaining repeat offenders.
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Old 14.01.2016, 13:33
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

Meanwhile did a group of pretty much every major law professor in the country sign a petition to vote against this as it harms an entire list of principles of the legal system. They see quite some fundamental things at risk: http://www.nzz.ch/schweiz/aktuelle-t...iative-ld.4181
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Old 14.01.2016, 14:14
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

How different is this from what the German government is now proposing for faster deportation of criminals? How different is it from laws anywhere else? Some officials are even advocating deportation without due process.

Also, how is it polling now after Köln?
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Old 14.01.2016, 15:11
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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How different is this from what the German government is now proposing for faster deportation of criminals? How different is it from laws anywhere else? Some officials are even advocating deportation without due process.

Also, how is it polling now after Köln?
In Switzerland people born here of foreign parents are classed as foreigners and need to go through the complex and expensive "einburgering" process if they want citizenship whereas in Germany it is a simple "rubber stamp" process.

The proposed German easing of the rules only applies to "people granted or seeking asylum".

Germany deported around 18,000 people last year.
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