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  #381  
Old 31.01.2016, 21:27
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/foreign-...udges/41925360

Just an article I picked up recently - it basically rehashes everything we have been saying and makes some good points.

“If this initiative passes it will mean that Switzerland, as a country of humanity, no longer exists,” he says, citing the example of a case he presided over involving an Austrian – born in Switzerland and completely integrated – who had killed his wife.
“At the time, we refused to expel him even though the penal code gave us the option. Because unfortunately there are several Swiss each year who kill their wives, and nobody finds it intolerable that they remain in Switzerland,” notes Schubarth. “On the other hand, when it comes to tourists who have no connection to the country and come simply to commit a crime, then I agree we must be very severe.”

It's about finding a balance and keeping things fair for everyone and not doling out false sense of justice and even more so, a false sense of security.
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  #382  
Old 31.01.2016, 21:39
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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Sorry for having been harsh but it gets a bit tiring to hear the same false stuff (lies in case of a certain poster) repeated, the same points questioned, over and over again.

However, in hindsight I'm thankful for that oversight: One single word meant a vastly different meaning.
Even worse - a word that neither you nor anyone on that side of the argument could highlight.

In any case I don't take offense - we're here to voice our views - and nothing more.

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Now imagine a person of below-average education and/or language skill, perhaps intelligence, having to fill some form based on a how-to in a language they barely understand, if at all. Aren't they likely to overread as you did, to genuinely misunderstand what they're to do, and put a correct number in the wrong space? Is it fair to have them mandatorily deported for an honest mistake comparable to your oversight?
If they make a mistake and can prove it was that then fair enough , although when you look at the enormous numbers of people involved in immigration and how they've been using social media and mobile communications to stay one step ahead of the state I'm very sceptical. So where there is a risk of defrauding the state then I'm afraid that logic dictates that the state must be exacting.

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Just as an example, how many US-americans (US born and raised, not counting people working in accounting or taxation-related) do you know, and how many of them do their own tax forms? Now, that's for the jurisdiction they've grown up in with forms in their mother tongue, just imagine the equivalent for an unfamiliar legal situation and in a language they barely speak.
Like me for example when I first came here ? Listen as they say back home - ignorance is no excuse for not obeying the law.

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Granted some foreigners will try to abuse the system and exploit it, there's no denying that. But that's simply human, there are fairer ways to ween out the abusers, cheaters, fraudsters than to put everybody and their children in the same criminal basket.
Go ahead... fairer and more efficient ways to stop it that don't unneccessarily burden the state ... I'm all ears.
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  #383  
Old 31.01.2016, 21:42
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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Even worse - a word that neither you nor anyone on that side of the argument could highlight.

In any case I don't take offense - we're here to voice our views - and nothing more.



If they make a mistake and can prove it was that then fair enough , although when you look at the enormous numbers of people involved in immigration and how they've been using social media and mobile communications to stay one step ahead of the state I'm very sceptical. So where there is a risk of defrauding the state then I'm afraid that logic dictates that the state must be exacting.


Like me for example when I first came here ?


Go ahead... fairer and more efficient ways to stop it that don't unneccessarily burden the state ... I'm all ears.
"Even worse - a word that neither you nor anyone on that side of the argument could highlight." Good to know it was our fault
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  #384  
Old 31.01.2016, 21:42
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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“At the time, we refused to expel him even though the penal code gave us the option. Because unfortunately there are several Swiss each year who kill their wives, and nobody finds it intolerable that they remain in Switzerland,” notes Schubarth.
This is the kind of reasoning that makes this initiative necessary.
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  #385  
Old 31.01.2016, 21:48
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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Posted in this thread long ago; comes from the Amt for statistics.
Actually could be higher as they do not give details of foreign criminals from non-EU countries

see Post 243.
Unfortunately on my machine at home I can't download your excel file in post # 243 but I will tomorow. thx in any case.

BTW if the initiative discourages a significant percentage of additional crime I'm all for it. 40% is still worthwhile.
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  #386  
Old 31.01.2016, 21:49
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

Explain. So they should toss Swiss out too? That would be fair, wouldn't it? What's good for the goose if that is how your reasoning goes. Actually, that might be the best idea yet. Let's implement the initiative and make sure it works over the board for everyone. Then it would be fair and just. But please let me know where you plan to send the Swiss criminals.
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Old 31.01.2016, 21:50
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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"Even worse - a word that neither you nor anyone on that side of the argument could highlight." Good to know it was our fault
Well I did ask repeatedly and got back some responses such as "Once" - einmal or "Twice" which didn't help... in any case it's ultimately my fault - but as Urs Max points out one word can make a significant difference.
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  #388  
Old 31.01.2016, 21:54
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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Explain. So they should toss Swiss out too? That would be fair, wouldn't it? What's good for the goose if that is how your reasoning goes. Actually, that might be the best idea yet. Let's implement the initiative and make sure it works over the board for everyone. Then it would be fair and just. But please let me know where you plan to send the Swiss criminals.



Mars or Thunderbay.My first thought was "Rocher River ",but you may not know where this is
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  #389  
Old 31.01.2016, 21:54
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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please let me know where you plan to send the Swiss criminals.
Australia, it worked for the Brits!

Tom
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  #390  
Old 31.01.2016, 21:55
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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Explain. So they should toss Swiss out too? That would be fair, wouldn't it? What's good for the goose if that is how your reasoning goes. Actually, that might be the best idea yet. Let's implement the initiative and make sure it works over the board for everyone. Then it would be fair and just. But please let me know where you plan to send the Swiss criminals.
Your argument is effectively debunked and debunked thoroughly in this excellent video from 18 mins onwards:


He also thoroughly explains why the European Convention of Human Rights is both counterproductive and nonsensical in the context of immigrant crime...

Finally he is a refugee child himself.
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  #391  
Old 31.01.2016, 22:06
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

Yes, the video makes some vaild points and I don't disagree with it. But I do disagree with the bagatelle clause in the initiative - if it was only dealing with heinous crime it would be a different story, but it doesn't. It goes further than that and can deport people for crimes that are not heinous Why does Switzerland need two roads of justice? Where is the fairness in that?
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  #392  
Old 31.01.2016, 22:15
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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Yes, the video makes some vaild points and I don't disagree with it. But I do disagree with the bagatelle clause in the initiative - if it was only dealing with heinous crime it would be a different story, but it doesn't. It goes further than that and can deport people for crimes that are not heinous Why does Switzerland need two roads of justice? Where is the fairness in that?
As the video points out the whole point of citzenship is that the society treats you differently i.e. citzenship conveys some advantage to the citzen - that it has value.

In my opinion social security fraud IS a heinous crime since from experience in my own country as well as conversations with the natives it forms a huge part of the incentive for non-productive people to come here and even worse it helps to tar many of the productive foreigners here with the brush of the other crowd.

Switzerland is a very small country - it's immigrant population is enormous - it does not HAVE to tolerate us - and if it's clever it won't unless it protects itself VERY SEVERELY against those of us who are not here to contribute to a well functioning society.
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  #393  
Old 31.01.2016, 22:27
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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This is the kind of reasoning that makes this initiative necessary.
Actually the kind of reasoning that destroys this initiative.

Can you quote any cases of a repeat murder offence? I thought not!

So why deport somebody who will never repeat the crime? How will this reduce crime? How will this help?
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  #394  
Old 31.01.2016, 22:29
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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As the video points out the whole point of citzenship is that the society treats you differently i.e. citzenship conveys some advantage to the citzen - that it has value.

In my opinion social security fraud IS a heinous crime since from experience in my own country as well as conversations with the natives it forms a huge part of the incentive for non-productive people to come here and even worse it helps to tar many of the productive foreigners here with the brush of the other crowd.

Switzerland is a very small country - it's immigrant population is enormous - it does not HAVE to tolerate us - and if it's clever it won't unless it protects itself VERY SEVERELY against those of us who are not here to contribute to a well functioning society.
"it does not HAVE to tolerate us" Indeed not. We are here because they could not find Swiss people to do the work we do.
They need to be grateful and reward us better
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  #395  
Old 31.01.2016, 22:31
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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Yes, the video makes some vaild points and I don't disagree with it. But I do disagree with the bagatelle clause in the initiative - if it was only dealing with heinous crime it would be a different story, but it doesn't. It goes further than that and can deport people for crimes that are not heinous Why does Switzerland need two roads of justice? Where is the fairness in that?
In my personal values, I don't believe in harshly punishing economic crimes by people who committed them to meet a basic need, such as food. That is my background. The Swiss apparently put a different value on defrauding the community. The Zwinglian culture puts a lot of onus on individuals to do their part and pull their weight in society. I see this in behavior of the Swiss the contributes a lot to why things run well in Switzerland. Few cultures in the world hold on to such values. But then they do not run as well as Switzerland either.

Switzerland runs a tight ship. It has to in order to compete with the rest of the world. It has to in order to maintain the quality of life the average person can have in Switzerland. I don't think this is worth sacrificing to assuage paranoid foreigners. I think foreigners need to get a clue on what makes Switzerland ticks if they intend to integrate. Otherwise, they lose that quality of life they think is something they deserve and should be served up to them for nothing at all. It isn't free. You really have to earn it to deserve it.

Managing this at this point of time makes it reasonable for further migration of foreigners into Switzerland. Losing control of this will erode Switzerland's social cohesion, and foreigners would prove with even less doubt whether they are a contributing factor, or a degenerating factor.
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Old 31.01.2016, 22:33
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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"it does not HAVE to tolerate us" Indeed not. We are here because they could not find Swiss people to do the work we do.
They need to be grateful and reward us better
That's hardly the only option - they could of course do like Singapore does - and only allow you in on fixed contracts booting your ass back from whence you came when you get sick or old.... Singapore doesn't suffer from a shortage of job applicants either.... see Saudi Arabia to see how things can get much much worse...
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Old 31.01.2016, 22:39
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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Actually the kind of reasoning that destroys this initiative.

Can you quote any cases of a repeat murder offence? I thought not!

So why deport somebody who will never repeat the crime? How will this reduce crime? How will this help?
Of course there are. I was reading about a Kosovar who was a repeat offender until he killed someone. They finally came to their senses and deported him. He later shows up in Basel to claim he needs a particular health treatment, so they let him back in. He then went on to commit a number of robberies.

Switzerland has been gamed by criminals for so long with the knowledge that it is laxed in laws and lenient in sentencing. The penitentiary system here is made so comfortable, it is more comfortable than regular life in impoverished places. Its a joke for some criminals. That imbalance needs to be addressed.

So not everyone may agree to the text of this initiative, but just about everyone acknowledges this is a problem. In the case of the FDP, for example, they are only contesting this because they would like to put forth their response, which is harsher in some respect.

Regardless, SVP initiatives have been known to pass despite opposition by all the other parties. When this passes, Switzerland will not automatically become an inhumane country. It will continue to offer asylum to those in need, and still be one of the biggest contributors to social relief efforts around the world. It will still follow the rule of law. The scaremongering about this initiative is ridiculously overblown, and I think a large portion of voters will recognize it for what it is.
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  #398  
Old 31.01.2016, 22:46
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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In my personal values, I don't believe in harshly punishing economic crimes by people who committed them to meet a basic need, such as food. That is my background. The Swiss apparently put a different value on defrauding the community. The Zwinglian culture puts a lot of onus on individuals to do their part and pull their weight in society. I see this in behavior of the Swiss the contributes a lot to why things run well in Switzerland. Few cultures in the world hold on to such values. But then they do not run as well as Switzerland either.

Switzerland runs a tight ship. It has to in order to compete with the rest of the world. It has to in order to maintain the quality of life the average person can have in Switzerland. I don't think this is worth sacrificing to assuage paranoid foreigners. I think foreigners need to get a clue on what makes Switzerland ticks if they intend to integrate. Otherwise, they lose that quality of life they think is something they deserve and should be served up to them for nothing at all. It isn't free. You really have to earn it to deserve it.

Managing this at this point of time makes it reasonable for further migration of foreigners into Switzerland. Losing control of this will erode Switzerland's social cohesion, and foreigners would prove with even less doubt whether they are a contributing factor, or a degenerating factor.
What are you on now?

"The Zwinglian culture puts a lot of onus ...." Half of Switzerland is Catholic; Zwingle denied the Catholic doctrine of transubstantiation!

"I think foreigners need to get a clue on what makes Switzerland ticks if they intend to integrate."
"erode Switzerland's social cohesion"
You do know there are at least three distinct cultures here; German, French & Italian.
Did you ever discuss with one of these cultures what they think of the others?
I once spent some time in the mountains with the Romansh speakers; gives you a different view.
Social cohesion, my bottom!

You have some absurd romantic view of the Swiss which is far from reality.
Reminds me of the Victorian "Romanticism"; rural life being a life-giving source of moral and imaginative power.

Sigh!
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Old 31.01.2016, 22:50
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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You do know there are at least three distinct cultures here; German, French & Italian.
Did you ever discuss with one of these cultures what they think of the others?
I once spent some time in the mountains with the Romansh speakers; gives you a different view.
I work for a Romansh dood... what's your point ???
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Old 31.01.2016, 22:51
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

The only scaremongering is by those who do not read what the initiative is saying. It can't be any clearer as in all the examples that have been brought up in this forum. Yes, everyone can have their own opinions but it's a long way from trying to prove that this initiative is based on a real need. If we take it for what it is, we can simply conclude that all crime is committed by foreigners and all foreigners should be expelled, regardless of what their crime is and so on... If we take that line then where does it stop? I do not agree in an "us and them" form of justice and I refuse to accept that this is the only alternative.
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