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  #461  
Old 02.02.2016, 20:50
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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From what I read, northwestern cantons reported their statistics. It turns out it was only applied in 1 out of 50 cases. Each canton applied it differently, for different cases. Around Basel, something like 1 in 120s cases resulted in deportation, 1 in 90s in Zuerich, 1 in 80's in Aargau, and 1 in 20s in smaller cantons. So there is a lot of inconsistencies on how the law is applied. Apparently no consistency yet in reporting on cases, so this will likely be addressed shortly.

A proper application of the Ausschaffungsinitiative is fine. I see the DSI as sending a message to the government to get its act straight. I really don't believe it will be applied to bubble gum thieves if it were to pass. Getting their act straight on the Ausschaffungsinitiative will suffice.
Replying I read something somewhere is not a credible reply; in fact, as a reply it is an insult.

You still have not explained how judges are managing to apply the Ausschaffungsinitiative incorrectly when it is not yet in law! As was explained many times already in this thread the law is written but not yet in implementation; it is waiting for the result of the vote on this initiative. Sigh!

You write "I really don't believe it will be applied........ " when the Swiss Justice Minister stated today the SVP are lying and Secondos will be deported for trivial offences. She gave the example of stealing a second hand bicycle.
Have you no shame spreading these SVP lies? You disgust me!

You have the pipe dream that minor criminal offences will not be prosecuted but you never explain how this would work.

I already posted the statements from the Chief Prosecutor of St Gallen that only the victim can decide which cases are prosecuted! How does this work?

The victim writes (or does not write ) a criminal complaint - could be for a stolen apple or a stolen Mona Lisa. The police and prosecutors have to process every criminal complaint; there is no official mechanism to "lose" the paperwork.
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  #462  
Old 02.02.2016, 21:49
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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Replying I read something somewhere is not a credible reply; in fact, as a reply it is an insult.
Not if you're Phos, he claims Phos' Exceptionalism.
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From what I read, northwestern cantons reported their statistics. It turns out it was only applied in 1 out of 50 cases. Each canton applied it differently, for different cases. Around Basel, something like 1 in 120s cases resulted in deportation, 1 in 90s in Zuerich, 1 in 80's in Aargau, and 1 in 20s in smaller cantons. So there is a lot of inconsistencies on how the law is applied. Apparently no consistency yet in reporting on cases, so this will likely be addressed shortly.

A proper application of the Ausschaffungsinitiative is fine. I see the DSI as sending a message to the government to get its act straight. I really don't believe it will be applied to bubble gum thieves if it were to pass. Getting their act straight on the Ausschaffungsinitiative will suffice.
Prove that the various crimes have the same share in each Kanton. Otherwise you're bound to get differences.

You claim know better than the Initiativkomittee, you should be their guru. Btw not even they deny that the various examples published so far would lead to deportation of the culprit. Just don't forget your crystal ball.
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  #463  
Old 02.02.2016, 21:54
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

http://www.derbund.ch/schweiz/standa...story/13027688


For a different perspective, there is this article in the Bund, explaining why the initiative will be a stab in the heart of Swiss democracy. It talks about humiliating the justice system, about the loss of trust and faith. And if anyone has forgotten:


"Die Schönheit des politischen Systems der Schweiz liegt im Prinzip der Machtbegrenzung. Es ist die Grundidee unserer Demokratie, dass die Macht nicht bei einem Regierungschef, nicht bei einer einzelnen Partei, nicht bei einer Parlamentskammer und auch nicht beim Zentralstaat alleine liegt."


It is what sets the system apart from others and if it fails, what will be left?
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A valuable but incomplete strand of thought...
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  #464  
Old 02.02.2016, 21:56
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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Rather a naïve view!
What is naive about it ? If you remove criminals faster than you convict them you have less in jail ?

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The elephant in the room is criminals cannot be deported before they are found guilty.
The Swiss Prosecutors association forecast extra costs of circa 40million per year.
How? Why?


Currently circa 80% of criminals in the interest group accept the verdict of the first (District) Court.
Now no one who is in their right mind and at risk of deportation will accept the verdict; they will appeal.
Didn't you claim that 60% of criminals in Switzerland were here illegally ?? How then did you get to 80% ?
Also before you are convicted of a crime why should you go to jail ? This was after all my point - that if you could achieve faster deportation than conviction rates that the proportion of foreign people in Swiss jail would fall.

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Currently the appeals process takes years and is a cash cow for lawyers - we pay!
Good let's campaign to fix that too... simplified appeals process - everybody wins.
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  #465  
Old 02.02.2016, 22:14
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

"This was after all my point - that if you could achieve faster deportation than conviction rates that the proportion of foreign people in Swiss jail would fall."



So deporting people before you convict them? Why didn't we think of that earlier? Actually, why not just deport them before they even commit a crime? At birth, for example?
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  #466  
Old 02.02.2016, 22:24
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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What is naive about it ? If you remove criminals faster than you convict them you have less in jail ?


Didn't you claim that 60% of criminals in Switzerland were here illegally ?? How then did you get to 80% ?
Also before you are convicted of a crime why should you go to jail ? This was after all my point - that if you could achieve faster deportation than conviction rates that the proportion of foreign people in Swiss jail would fall.


Good let's campaign to fix that too... simplified appeals process - everybody wins.
Are you serious or simply trolling?

It is not possible to remove criminals faster than you convict them because they will appeal against their convictions which will delay the conviction process by years - got it now?

60% of the foreign criminals are here illegally.
Currently 80% of all criminals accept their guilty verdicts in the lower court. How/Why are you linking these two numbers together?
Pick any two totally unrelated numbers in my posts and surprise, surprise they will not be the same number.

"before you are convicted of a crime why should you go to jail ?" Most foreigners are in jail here before they are convicted because they are not offered bail due to the perceived risk of fleeing.
The SVP claims they are foreign criminals in jail but you cannot correctly describe them as criminals before they are convicted; they are accused persons.

Simplified appeals process? Why not simply cancel the appeals process?
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  #467  
Old 02.02.2016, 22:27
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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http://www.derbund.ch/schweiz/standa...story/13027688


For a different perspective, there is this article in the Bund, explaining why the initiative will be a stab in the heart of Swiss democracy. It talks about humiliating the justice system, about the loss of trust and faith. And if anyone has forgotten:


"Die Schönheit des politischen Systems der Schweiz liegt im Prinzip der Machtbegrenzung. Es ist die Grundidee unserer Demokratie, dass die Macht nicht bei einem Regierungschef, nicht bei einer einzelnen Partei, nicht bei einer Parlamentskammer und auch nicht beim Zentralstaat alleine liegt."


It is what sets the system apart from others and if it fails, what will be left?

All these commentaries are from the perspective of the political establishment, exactly the ones under which this initiative lit a fire under. I could see why they would be against it. The question is whether voters will support the political establishment, or rebuke it. What we are seeing from the US to Europe are voters expressing dissatisfaction with the political establishment. There is a marked shift to the right, even here in Switzerland. This initiative may further demonstrate it. Why you don't see it televised may be a different reason altogether.
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  #468  
Old 02.02.2016, 22:32
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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All these commentaries are from the perspective of the political establishment, exactly the ones under which this initiative lit a fire under. I could see why they would be against it. The question is whether voters will support the political establishment, or rebuke it. What we are seeing from the US to Europe are voters expressing dissatisfaction with the political establishment. There is a marked shift to the right, even here in Switzerland. This initiative may further demonstrate it. Why you don't see it televised may be a different reason altogether.
"The question is whether voters will support the political establishment, or rebuke it." Yes I agree, we all hope the voters will reject this initiative that was created by the largest Swiss political party.

Paragraphs would be helpful; you know what they are?
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  #469  
Old 02.02.2016, 22:34
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

I wish you would stop quoting Phos. I ensured I could not longer see his post- and then you pick them up and force feed them to me
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  #470  
Old 02.02.2016, 22:35
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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"The question is whether voters will support the political establishment, or rebuke it." Yes I agree, we all hope the voters will reject this initiative that was created by the largest Swiss political party.

Paragraphs would be helpful; you know what they are?

Not really. I actually want voters to pass it.


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I wish you would stop quoting Phos. I ensured I could not longer see his post- and then you pick them up and force feed them to me
But he's taken it upon himself to respond to every single one of my post.
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  #471  
Old 02.02.2016, 22:38
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

"A marked shift to the right" is not really a good thing, is it? What Switzerland needs to do is not be like the US or other European countries and continue supporting a system that is fair and not be run by one party that can bully everyone else.
There is nothing wrong with having a system where there isn't any one particular person in power unless you are the person who wants to be in power....or if you are the SVP.
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  #472  
Old 02.02.2016, 22:38
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

Did somebody say anything?

As far as a shift ot the right, may I say it again- just in case it was missed:

The PLR/SDP and Economie Suisse have both asked all members and others to vote against the initiative due to its likely consequences for the bilaterals and the economy, export, tourism, jobs, etc, etc. Hardly a bunch of lefties. And so have the associations of lawyers and Law School profs... who are not either.
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  #473  
Old 02.02.2016, 22:40
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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I wish you would stop quoting Phos. I ensured I could not longer see his post- and then you pick them up and force feed them to me

Sorry, guilty as charged
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  #474  
Old 02.02.2016, 22:43
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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Not really. I actually want voters to pass it.




But he's taken it upon himself to respond to every single one of my post.

Think yourself lucky; I never get any factual responses from you to my posts.


You could try launching off into unknown territory by writing factual and accurate posts then I would have nothing to reply to
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  #475  
Old 02.02.2016, 22:45
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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"A marked shift to the right" is not really a good thing, is it? What Switzerland needs to do is not be like the US or other European countries and continue supporting a system that is fair and not be run by one party that can bully everyone else.
There is nothing wrong with having a system where there isn't any one particular person in power unless you are the person who wants to be in power....or if you are the SVP.

Its good for national interests.


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Think yourself lucky; I never get any factual responses from you to my posts.


You could try launching off into unknown territory by writing factual and accurate posts then I would have nothing to reply to

Sorry, I find your "About the...." questions boring, and I don't really want to bother spending the time looking for the data. But I am rarely ever wrong. They are afterall, my personal perspective.
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  #476  
Old 02.02.2016, 23:01
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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Its good for national interests.





Sorry, I find your "About the...." questions boring, and I don't really want to bother spending the time looking for the data. But I am rarely ever wrong. They are afterall, my personal perspective.
Boring? Well nobody forces you to read them

I just like to demonstrate how divergent your personal views are from reality

Everybody needs a hobby
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  #477  
Old 02.02.2016, 23:06
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

"Sorry, I find your "About the...." questions boring, and I don't really want to bother spending the time looking for the data. But I am rarely ever wrong. They are afterall, my personal perspective. "


Then say it is personal perspective and don't try to disguise untruths as facts.
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  #478  
Old 03.02.2016, 01:09
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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"Sorry, I find your "About the...." questions boring, and I don't really want to bother spending the time looking for the data. But I am rarely ever wrong. They are afterall, my personal perspective. "


Then say it is personal perspective and don't try to disguise untruths as facts.

Untruths? No, no, those are valid perspectives, and you will see it reflected in the upcoming vote.


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Boring? Well nobody forces you to read them
You're right. I rarely read them.
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  #479  
Old 03.02.2016, 01:33
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

Pro and contra the initiative, in German [ http://lmgtfy.com/ ]

http://www.derbund.ch/schweiz/standa...story/14717244
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  #480  
Old 03.02.2016, 09:25
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

[QUOTE=Starbug;2530409]"This was after all my point - that if you could achieve faster deportation than conviction rates that the proportion of foreign people in Swiss jail would fall."


I've been following this thread for a while, but this quote here is by far the most shocking and saddening; how can a person postulate punishing alleged criminals before judging them? "Achieve faster deportation before conviction"? Does that make any sense at all??? You want to deport alleged offenders before convicting them of a crime? Where then will the line be drawn? Who then will be safe from deportation if people are punished before judgement?
Before ANY offender can be deported, REGARDLESS of the crime committed, that said offender must and will be imprisoned in a Swiss jail. With this new DSI the amount of people being imprisoned before deportation will increase because the amount of transgressions that result in deportation will be increased.
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