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  #521  
Old 03.02.2016, 14:45
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

So far, what I read against it strike me as hyperbolic, such as the anti-SVP hysteria on this forum. Separating the hyperbole from facts, which I find the Swiss voters are capable of doing, ought to set the record straight. I do believe they use better judgment and vote their conscience accordingly more than other partisan democracies I know of. Have faith. This country and its democracy has not fared too badly.

I owe you an honest response afterwards, whether you will like it or not.
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  #522  
Old 03.02.2016, 14:50
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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*Waffle*
In fairness, you're not really adding much to the discussion at this stage, old chap.
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  #523  
Old 03.02.2016, 15:24
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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Do not forget that the Swiss integrity with regards to their willingness to intergrate a considerate foreign population within their ranks, is on the line as well.
I don't know if this new wave of immigrants are considerate of their new home. Have you heard many positive stories? So far mostly negative stories have been reported. Swiss integrity takes into account the checks and balances that come into play. Just like with your home budget: if you can't afford to get something, you make do without, so as a society, we can only do so much before going in the red. Absorbing the cost of a large number of people with a complete different thinking (female population is trash) comes at a bigger cost than just financial.

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It'll also be interesting to see how the public, especially the SVP reacts to the inevitable spike in applications for Naturalisation. After all, who wants to put his/her life, as well as the lives of family at risks by remaining a foreigner in Switzerland? I know i wont.
If you meant to say "...considerable foreign population...", it's a two-way street: both the immigrants and the host country must work on the integration of the immigrants, but while the immigrants want this and that, they refuse to adapt to the new rules of the land. If there will be a spike in naturalizations, I think it's a good thing. You live here, work here, and can become a citizen, why not do it?
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  #524  
Old 03.02.2016, 15:43
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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I don't know if this new wave of immigrants are considerate of their new home. Have you heard many positive stories? So far mostly negative stories have been reported. Swiss integrity takes into account the checks and balances that come into play. Just like with your home budget: if you can't afford to get something, you make do without, so as a society, we can only do so much before going in the red. Absorbing the cost of a large number of people with a complete different thinking (female population is trash) comes at a bigger cost than just financial.



If you meant to say "...considerable foreign population...", it's a two-way street: both the immigrants and the host country must work on the integration of the immigrants, but while the immigrants want this and that, they refuse to adapt to the new rules of the land. If there will be a spike in naturalizations, I think it's a good thing. You live here, work here, and can become a citizen, why not do it?
"have you heard many positive stories"?? Really? Seriously? is that a serious honest question? Have i heard of ANY positive stories regarding migrants and the Swiss society? hmm, let me think for a second. oh yes, THE SWISS NATIONAL FOOTBALL (SOCCER) TEAM, THE SWISS NATIONAL BASKETBALL TEAM, THE SWISS NATIONAL *insert any sport here* TEAM. hmm, what else?how about the more than MAJORITY of migrants that live, work, pay tax and generally contribute to the swiss society, how about them? the corner kebab stand, the chinese restaurant in your neighbourhood, the portugese chap that repairs the street next to your apartment. what about them?
The DSI has NOTHING to do with the refugee situation currently in europe, if so, how come it targets secondos as well? hmm? how come it puts secondos in the same category as refugees and tourists in the eyes of the law? How come? How come secondos, who have lived and worked in switzerland for so long have to be degraded in such a way?
I personally have nothing against nationalisation, what i do have something against are HARSCH RULES governing nationalisation, the rules that exist within swiss law. Why must i live in ONE SINGLE STATE for 5 years before being eligible for the swiss citizenship? what if i have to move from state to state like very many foreign nationals that work for international companies or others that just need to do so to make a living? hmm, how come? what difference does it make to become swiss if i live in bern for 2 years and then move to genf for the next 6? makes no sense at all. There are very, very many secondos and foreigners who would LOVE to become swiss, but the obstacles standing in their way are much too high. The same SVP that currently states that secondos who are afraid of the DSI should just become swiss citizens are the ones who put the legal obstacles in the way of the said secondos to PREVENT them from becoming swiss.
You seem to forget that all the migrants that have come to Switzerland over the decades have MADE MUCH more MONEY FOR SWITZERLAND as compared to the costs they have caused. The level of prosperity in Switzerland can be traced back to them, do not forget that most of the infrastructure the swiss society sees and uses DAILY was built on the backs of migrants.
Always the same old song, foreigners bla, bla, bla...
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  #525  
Old 03.02.2016, 17:25
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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In fairness, you're not really adding much to the discussion at this stage, old chap.
Well, there is clarity and integrity.

For one, it is assumed that DSI will be moderated when passed by a couple of people I just chatted with. But they are voting for it. So I am still searching for an avid SP voter who is voting against it that will confirm it would be moderated. I'll look for a middle ground FDP voter, and finally, will contact a knowlegdbable Swiss lawyer later. I promise I will let you what I find out.

Secondly, these same laws are quite parallel to similar laws in the US. So I don't see an extraordinary inhumanity in it yet. But if there truly is, I promise I will acknowledge it.

I promise that if I find out that it would not be moderated, and it will be taken into the constitution verbatim, without contention, and applied to abuse foreigners, I will eat crow and vote against it. I think that is a fair proposition.
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  #526  
Old 03.02.2016, 18:38
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

I don't mean to add more fuel to the fire. Maybe 3-4 years later, this soccer player feels a bit more Swiss if he's still here.

‘I Feel Completely Albanian’ – Swiss player admits to intentionally botching goal

But I wasn't talking about Europeans migrating within Europe, when I rebutted your argument (despite the fact that even between Europeans there is a lot of discordance, to put it mildly, or shall I say outright discrimination, in case of all Eastern Europeans being tarred with the same brush), because people aren't reacting to those people. As far as I'm concerned people are reacting to not knowing how to deal with the introduction of people of such a different upbringing who also have a religion that spills into civil/criminal law as we know it, in quite a different way than we apply it (like discriminating against women based on one).

The problem is in the numbers: the recent numbers are too many to educate in the Western fashion; then you get the secondos, born and raised here, but who are no different in their upbringing than their parents, despite the fact that geographically they were born in Europe. Isn't that what a parallel society is? Then one day you get a guy waltzing in your office, wanting a PhD from you but won't shake hands with you because you are a woman. Or you get your boss of this kind of upbringing who can round up the women and fire them because they are inferior beings. These are real fears people have. The first example happened to a friend, is my second example too farfetched?

Go educate people grassroots style if you feel so strongly about it, or keep on groaning from your keyboard. Whatever floats your boat.
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  #527  
Old 03.02.2016, 18:46
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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I don't mean to add more fuel to the fire. Maybe 3-4 years later, this soccer player feels a bit more Swiss if he's still here.

‘I Feel Completely Albanian’ – Swiss player admits to intentionally botching goal

But I wasn't talking about Europeans migrating within Europe, when I rebutted your argument (despite the fact that even between Europeans there is a lot of discordance, to put it mildly, or shall I say outright discrimination, in case of all Eastern Europeans being tarred with the same brush), because people aren't reacting to those people. As far as I'm concerned people are reacting to not knowing how to deal with the introduction of people of such a different upbringing who also have a religion that spills into civil/criminal law as we know it, in quite a different way than we apply it (like discriminating against women based on one).

The problem is in the numbers: the recent numbers are too many to educate in the Western fashion; then you get the secondos, born and raised here, but who are no different in their upbringing than their parents, despite the fact that geographically they were born in Europe. Isn't that what a parallel society is? Then one day you get a guy waltzing in your office, wanting a PhD from you but won't shake hands with you because you are a woman. Or you get your boss of this kind of upbringing who can round up the women and fire them because they are inferior beings. These are real fears people have. The first example happened to a friend, is my second example too farfetched?

Go educate people grassroots style if you feel so strongly about it, or keep on groaning from your keyboard. Whatever floats your boat.


This thread is about an initiative to automatically deport people who do not have a Swiss passport but are convicted of certain crimes.
Can you explain how your post is related to this topic?


You seem to be completely off-topic
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  #528  
Old 03.02.2016, 19:05
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

Switzerland does not need this kind of social divide. It doesn't need anymore "us and them" than there already is. There is a right wing element that brazenly walked in through the front door riding on a campaign of fear and giving people a bizarre idea that a strong SVP would give us a safer country to live in. It has given us a more paranoid country for sure but we are not any less safe than we were before. Only the SVP would like us the think "they - mean, nasty, criminal foreigners" are out to collectively get us. But it's okay to openly lie and create fear, that's just politics.
http://www.nzz.ch/schweiz/aktuelle-t...iative-ld.4857


"Die Kantonsregierungen, die Direktorenkonferenzen und sogar die Staatsschreiber rufen dazu auf, die Durchsetzungsinitiative abzulehnen. Ein ausserordentliches Vorgehen bei einer eidgenössischen Volksinitiative. "


and if anyone else needs to be convinced, the attached article might do it.
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  #529  
Old 03.02.2016, 19:19
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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So far, what I read against it strike me as hyperbolic, such as the anti-SVP hysteria on this forum. Separating the hyperbole from facts, which I find the Swiss voters are capable of doing, ought to set the record straight. I do believe they use better judgment and vote their conscience accordingly more than other partisan democracies I know of. Have faith. This country and its democracy has not fared too badly.

I owe you an honest response afterwards, whether you will like it or not.


Labelling everybody who has a different opinion as hysterical is no way to win friends and influence people.
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  #530  
Old 03.02.2016, 19:48
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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Well, there is clarity and integrity.

For one, it is assumed that DSI will be moderated when passed by a couple of people I just chatted with. But they are voting for it. So I am still searching for an avid SP voter who is voting against it that will confirm it would be moderated. I'll look for a middle ground FDP voter, and finally, will contact a knowlegdbable Swiss lawyer later. I promise I will let you what I find out.

Secondly, these same laws are quite parallel to similar laws in the US. So I don't see an extraordinary inhumanity in it yet. But if there truly is, I promise I will acknowledge it.

I promise that if I find out that it would not be moderated, and it will be taken into the constitution verbatim, without contention, and applied to abuse foreigners, I will eat crow and vote against it. I think that is a fair proposition.
Do also ask your lawyer friends to comment on this extract (German language) from an interview with the Swiss Justice Minister.

She said that "the initiative states its provisions are directly applicable. The SVP want to lock out Parliament and judges"


Frage
Kann man nicht darauf vertrauen, dass die Suppe dann schon nicht so heiss gegessen wird, wie sie nun im Abstimmungskampf gekocht wird? Immerhin bleibt das Verhältnismässigkeitsprinzip ja unabhängig vom Ausgang der Abstimmung am 28. Februar in der Verfassung verankert, weshalb völlig offen ist, wie strikt die Richter die Durchsetzungsinitiative umsetzen würden.

Antwort
Das stimmt nicht. Bitte lesen Sie den Initiativtext genau. Darin steht, ihre Bestimmungen seien direkt anwendbar. Die SVP will Parlament und Richter ausschalten. Es ist ein Spiel mit dem Feuer, darauf zu vertrauen, dass dann schon noch jemand zum Rechten schaut... Und ehrlich gesagt, das wird langsam absurd: zu etwas ja sagen, und dann hoffen, dass es nicht eintritt?!
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  #531  
Old 03.02.2016, 20:01
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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Switzerland does not need this kind of social divide. It doesn't need anymore "us and them" than there already is. There is a right wing element that brazenly walked in through the front door riding on a campaign of fear and giving people a bizarre idea that a strong SVP would give us a safer country to live in. It has given us a more paranoid country for sure but we are not any less safe than we were before. Only the SVP would like us the think "they - mean, nasty, criminal foreigners" are out to collectively get us. But it's okay to openly lie and create fear, that's just politics.
http://www.nzz.ch/schweiz/aktuelle-t...iative-ld.4857


"Die Kantonsregierungen, die Direktorenkonferenzen und sogar die Staatsschreiber rufen dazu auf, die Durchsetzungsinitiative abzulehnen. Ein ausserordentliches Vorgehen bei einer eidgenössischen Volksinitiative. "


and if anyone else needs to be convinced, the attached article might do it.

Quote from the Swiss voting papers issued today;

Bundesrat say vote No
Nationalrat voted 140 vs 57 against this initiative
Ständerat voted 38 vs 6 against this initiative
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  #532  
Old 03.02.2016, 20:26
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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Labelling everybody who has a different opinion as hysterical is no way to win friends and influence people.
Well don't accuse me of disinforming when I am inquiring. Now its getting clearer who is doing the disinformation.


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Switzerland does not need this kind of social divide. It doesn't need anymore "us and them" than there already is. There is a right wing element that brazenly walked in through the front door riding on a campaign of fear and giving people a bizarre idea that a strong SVP would give us a safer country to live in. It has given us a more paranoid country for sure but we are not any less safe than we were before. Only the SVP would like us the think "they - mean, nasty, criminal foreigners" are out to collectively get us. But it's okay to openly lie and create fear, that's just politics.
http://www.nzz.ch/schweiz/aktuelle-t...iative-ld.4857


"Die Kantonsregierungen, die Direktorenkonferenzen und sogar die Staatsschreiber rufen dazu auf, die Durchsetzungsinitiative abzulehnen. Ein ausserordentliches Vorgehen bei einer eidgenössischen Volksinitiative. "


and if anyone else needs to be convinced, the attached article might do it.

To be honest, I get more of that US v. THEM mentality from foreigners than I do from the Swiss. This DSI for example, for me clearly speaks of criminals, not foreigners who are appreciated and valued in Switzerland.
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  #533  
Old 03.02.2016, 20:28
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

Phos on ignore list, the guy is unbearable
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  #534  
Old 03.02.2016, 21:27
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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Well don't accuse me of disinforming when I am inquiring. Now its getting clearer who is doing the disinformation.





To be honest, I get more of that US v. THEM mentality from foreigners than I do from the Swiss. This DSI for example, for me clearly speaks of criminals, not foreigners who are appreciated and valued in Switzerland.
Please do share what the DSI says about criminals who are not foreigners HaHa!
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  #535  
Old 03.02.2016, 21:47
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

The association of Swiss Kantons has now published a statement aginst this initiative here in German language also here. or here.

One of their reasons is that the initiative seeks to avoid any review or modification by Parliament before being implemented quote "Die Kantone stören sich etwa daran, dass der Stimmbürger die Ausführungsbestimmungen direkt erlassen soll, obwohl dies Aufgabe des Parlaments sei."

They also write they do not have the staff or facilities to handle such an increase in deportees.
Other reasons they give are;
  • Damages Swiss core values
  • People born here will be deported for minor or trivial offences which is against all reason and humanity
  • Many people will appeal their sentences which leads to unnecessary overheads

plus a lot of other comments.
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  #536  
Old 04.02.2016, 00:24
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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Phos on ignore list, the guy is unbearable
On mine too (the only one) you can't talk to people like that, so given up trying.
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  #537  
Old 04.02.2016, 09:25
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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I don't mean to add more fuel to the fire. Maybe 3-4 years later, this soccer player feels a bit more Swiss if he's still here.

‘I Feel Completely Albanian’ – Swiss player admits to intentionally botching goal

But I wasn't talking about Europeans migrating within Europe, when I rebutted your argument (despite the fact that even between Europeans there is a lot of discordance, to put it mildly, or shall I say outright discrimination, in case of all Eastern Europeans being tarred with the same brush), because people aren't reacting to those people. As far as I'm concerned people are reacting to not knowing how to deal with the introduction of people of such a different upbringing who also have a religion that spills into civil/criminal law as we know it, in quite a different way than we apply it (like discriminating against women based on one).

The problem is in the numbers: the recent numbers are too many to educate in the Western fashion; then you get the secondos, born and raised here, but who are no different in their upbringing than their parents, despite the fact that geographically they were born in Europe. Isn't that what a parallel society is? Then one day you get a guy waltzing in your office, wanting a PhD from you but won't shake hands with you because you are a woman. Or you get your boss of this kind of upbringing who can round up the women and fire them because they are inferior beings. These are real fears people have. The first example happened to a friend, is my second example too farfetched?

Go educate people grassroots style if you feel so strongly about it, or keep on groaning from your keyboard. Whatever floats your boat.
Honestly, completely off topic. This Thread or the DSI is NOT about refugees from Muslim countries. Its about the compulsory deportation of foreigners who commit crimes, REGARDLESS of the social situation back in their native countries and here in Switzerland. The only exception are foreigners who come from countries that are political unstable or who pose a real threath to life and safety of the said foreigners.

The DSI will NOT stop the influx of refugees because it has NOTHING to do with refugees, you seem to be confusing one issue with the other. So if your fear is the continued migration of war victims from the middle east, then you would be well advised to vote against the DSI.
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  #538  
Old 04.02.2016, 10:03
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

The latest polls I find show a marginal 51% acceptance of the initiative (ie bad news)

poll by Swiss Radio & TV, dated 22. January: 51% for the SVP initiative
http://www.srf.ch/news/schweiz/absti...ngs-initiative

poll by Swisscom, dated 22. January: 51% for the SVP initiative
https://www.bluewin.ch/de/news/inlan...rchsetzun.html

This situation has arisen is despite virtually all the non SVP supporters in federal, cantonal and local government stating that the initiative will have terrible effects, and will be inefficient and expensive.

[This negates Phos' statement that Swiss voters are sensible and will do the right thing]
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  #539  
Old 04.02.2016, 10:36
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

Well according to what i've been reading online at other sources, the Yes-Vote to this topic won't be the complete end to it. That is, after the Yes-vote occurs at the end of the month, parliament will have to decide what kind of moderations are to be made, if they WANT to make any moderations at all. You see, once the DSI is yes-voted on the parliament will be in a sticky position; either conform to the wishes of the people(i.e. SVP) and throw away many agreements with the EU regarding Human Rights, OR stick to their guns and uphold the Härtefallklausel, with that the Human Rights Agreements with the EU. In the case of the former, the EU will rise up in arms against the DSI, the SVP will scream and shout "Swiss Law ABOVE European Law" and start up a new Initiative using the peoples Yes-vote to the DSI as ammunition. In the case of the latter (Parliament sticks to its guns and moderates the DSI) then we'll have this wwhhhoollllleeee circus ALL OVER AGAIN. SVP will scream " The parliament wants to protect criminals over victims", the parliament will become less favourably viewed by the public and the cycle continues *sigh*
Like i always tell friends and family, we are living in radical times; things that we learnt during the dark decades of the 30s, 40s and 50s are being thrown systematically out the window, not only here in Switzerland, but in the majority of the western world. More and more people scream for "Hard Justice" and "Hard line politics" and "no-compromise","no mercy for wrong doers", "Us against them"and "no backing down" and seem to forget that more then 60 years ago the same words were being used on a daily basis. really shocking and saddening.
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  #540  
Old 04.02.2016, 10:44
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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Well, there is clarity and integrity.

For one, it is assumed that DSI will be moderated when passed by a couple of people I just chatted with. But they are voting for it. So I am still searching for an avid SP voter who is voting against it that will confirm it would be moderated. I'll look for a middle ground FDP voter, and finally, will contact a knowlegdbable Swiss lawyer later. I promise I will let you what I find out.

Secondly, these same laws are quite parallel to similar laws in the US. So I don't see an extraordinary inhumanity in it yet. But if there truly is, I promise I will acknowledge it.

I promise that if I find out that it would not be moderated, and it will be taken into the constitution verbatim, without contention, and applied to abuse foreigners, I will eat crow and vote against it. I think that is a fair proposition.
I'm afraid I don't believe you will. And by your logic, that makes it a fact that you won't.
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