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  #581  
Old 04.02.2016, 18:53
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

Glad to hear nobody is actually against deporting criminal foreigners. It really is the most sensible thing to do. For a moment there, I thought someone was up in arms about "da man" oppressing the poor foreigner again. Foreigners are valued and appreciated in Switzerland, and its somewhat irresponsible to try to alienate them from the rest of the society. That isn't the SVP doing that, its those accusing the SVP of doing that.

The AI is watered down to a point that deporting a criminal will be so subjective, with little standards, that it will not likely to be applicable in most cases. The DSI is an attempt to reiterate what AI was with less ambiguity. Hence my support of it. Yes, i agree it appears to over-reach, but expectations are it will undergo review, and it you truly are not against deporting criminals and support AI, then I think its essentially the same aim. The difference may be the SVP gets bragging rights if they win, which I believe will peeve you to no end. But hell, in a democracy, nobody always gets what they want. You just live with what you get.

Done deal for me either way, unless you still have a problem with that.
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  #582  
Old 04.02.2016, 18:56
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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Glad to hear nobody is actually against deporting criminal foreigners. It really is the most sensible thing to do.

Actually, you are the one which does not want to deport criminals by supporting the initiative. If the initiative passes, the list which criminals should get deported will not be changed soon. Why do you want keep this scum in Switzerland?
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  #583  
Old 04.02.2016, 19:20
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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Glad to hear nobody is actually against deporting criminal foreigners. It really is the most sensible thing to do. For a moment there, I thought someone was up in arms about "da man" oppressing the poor foreigner again. Foreigners are valued and appreciated in Switzerland, and its somewhat irresponsible to try to alienate them from the rest of the society. That isn't the SVP doing that, its those accusing the SVP of doing that.

The AI is watered down to a point that deporting a criminal will be so subjective, with little standards, that it will not likely to be applicable in most cases. The DSI is an attempt to reiterate what AI was with less ambiguity. Hence my support of it. Yes, i agree it appears to over-reach, but expectations are it will undergo review, and it you truly are not against deporting criminals and support AI, then I think its essentially the same aim. The difference may be the SVP gets bragging rights if they win, which I believe will peeve you to no end. But hell, in a democracy, nobody always gets what they want. You just live with what you get.

Done deal for me either way, unless you still have a problem with that.
"Glad to hear nobody is actually against deporting criminal foreigners." You only just noticed that after circa 600 posts?

This initiative is not about "for or against" deportation!
It is about "for or against" automating the process. You really should read it!

"The difference may be the SVP gets bragging rights if they win, which I believe will peeve you to no end." Why should it peeve me? You do have odd beliefs.
I will be sad for Switzerland if a majority of people do vote to destroy Swiss core values.

Pity we are so far into this thread and you still have so many false notions.
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  #584  
Old 04.02.2016, 19:22
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

The article says 8% of seconos vote SVP.

Maybe the glass is half full, maybe it is half empty.

This may be less than the population at large but I think no other right-wing party in Europe polls so well among second generation immigrants.

In addition to that you have to ask how were these statistics obtained and see the precise wording of the question asked. I guess many SVP leaning secondos don't self-identify as secondos.

If you read the comments to this article there are several seconos who are surprised at being told they don't vote SVP.
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  #585  
Old 04.02.2016, 19:28
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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The article says 8% of seconos vote SVP.

Maybe the glass is half full, maybe it is half empty.

This may be less than the population at large but I think no other right-wing party in Europe polls so well among second generation immigrants.

In addition to that you have to ask how were these statistics obtained and see the precise wording of the question asked. I guess many SVP leaning secondos don't self-identify as secondos.

If you read the comments to this article there are several seconos who are surprised at being told they don't vote SVP.
"If you read the comments to this article there are several seconos who are surprised at being told they don't vote SVP"

This is what you call a statistically significant sample?
Who knows, could they possibly be part of the 8%?
I think it is spelt "secondos"

Do I understand correctly? I mean the rest of your post just consists of personal opinions with no facts behind them?
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  #586  
Old 04.02.2016, 19:35
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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Glad to hear nobody is actually against deporting criminal foreigners. It really is the most sensible thing to do. For a moment there, I thought someone was up in arms about "da man" oppressing the poor foreigner again. Foreigners are valued and appreciated in Switzerland, and its somewhat irresponsible to try to alienate them from the rest of the society. That isn't the SVP doing that, its those accusing the SVP of doing that.

The AI is watered down to a point that deporting a criminal will be so subjective, with little standards, that it will not likely to be applicable in most cases. The DSI is an attempt to reiterate what AI was with less ambiguity. Hence my support of it. Yes, i agree it appears to over-reach, but expectations are it will undergo review, and it you truly are not against deporting criminals and support AI, then I think its essentially the same aim. The difference may be the SVP gets bragging rights if they win, which I believe will peeve you to no end. But hell, in a democracy, nobody always gets what they want. You just live with what you get.

Done deal for me either way, unless you still have a problem with that.
"The AI is watered down to a point ..." You keep writing such false statements as if they were facts?
Then when you are challenged you reply something like "It is just my opinion"
Such deliberate spreading of confusion does not improve the equality of debate here.
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  #587  
Old 04.02.2016, 19:36
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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Do I understand correctly? I mean the rest of your post just consists of personal opinions with no facts behind them?
Do try to keep up.


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But then naturalized secondos tend to not vote SVP. I wonder why
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What makes you think they don't?

My observation is quite the opposite.

I know plenty of SVP-leaning secondos.

So I was saying this is my observation / opinion. I was challenged on that and now you are saying that my opinion is my opinion.

Are your opinions not your opinions, or what are you trying to say?
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  #588  
Old 04.02.2016, 20:57
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

I have quite a few friends who are secondos and secondas as the terms go. When I met with a group of the recently and we talked about this initiative what shocked them most is that their Swissness is being questioned. With two exceptions out of a group of 10 people, it was their grandparents who came to Switzerland in the 1960's (the other 2 it was their parents who came here) and their parents were born here as they were. None of them think of themselves as any less Swiss than other Swiss people do and until now they never thought that having a little red passport will be used to define them as members of this society. These are young people who have never been to their so called home country for anything more than a summer holiday. This is their home and this is where they want to spend their lives.
Another issue is that they take offence to being lumped into the same pot as "criminal foreigners"...
Take a moment and try to see it from their point of view. This is an issue about people. Not about statistics. It is about people that you know, people you love, people you work with, socialise with, people your children go to school with. I hate seeing the fear that this initiative has stirred up in my friends and I am given hope by the fact that they believe Switzerland won't let them down. But if it does and this initiative comes through, who is going to stand up for them when they have no voice left at all?
I honestly care about my country and I can say it is my country. But that gives me equal right to say I am ashamed that my country is taking this road.
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  #589  
Old 04.02.2016, 21:05
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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I have quite a few friends who are secondos and secondas as the terms go. When I met with a group of the recently and we talked about this initiative what shocked them most is that their Swissness is being questioned. With two exceptions out of a group of 10 people, it was their grandparents who came to Switzerland in the 1960's (the other 2 it was their parents who came here) and their parents were born here as they were. None of them think of themselves as any less Swiss than other Swiss people do and until now they never thought that having a little red passport will be used to define them as members of this society. These are young people who have never been to their so called home country for anything more than a summer holiday. This is their home and this is where they want to spend their lives.
Another issue is that they take offence to being lumped into the same pot as "criminal foreigners"...
Take a moment and try to see it from their point of view. This is an issue about people. Not about statistics. It is about people that you know, people you love, people you work with, socialise with, people your children go to school with. I hate seeing the fear that this initiative has stirred up in my friends and I am given hope by the fact that they believe Switzerland won't let them down. But if it does and this initiative comes through, who is going to stand up for them when they have no voice left at all?
I honestly care about my country and I can say it is my country. But that gives me equal right to say I am ashamed that my country is taking this road.
Excellent post!


One technical question! If it was their grandparents who came to Switzerland then they are not secondos but "thirdos" or whatever the term is!


For me deporting "thirdos" is a big step worse than deporting secondos (not that I am for deporting secondos)!
The SVP have really done an excellent job of splitting Swiss society into us and them. Makes a mockery of "integration"?
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  #590  
Old 04.02.2016, 21:10
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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Murder cases by calender year over the last 20 years
http://duye7ofkee3nv.cloudfront.net/yLNU8/1/
and here's the article.

And how many of those repeated the crime of murder after their conviction and serving their sentence?


I would assume none? So how will deportation improve anything?
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  #591  
Old 04.02.2016, 21:16
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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I think the problem with that is it is too subjective with no standards, hence anything and everything could be argued to fit through it, to a point it makes it all moot. Had a certain standard been agreed upon, DSI would have no ground, would be unnecessary, and surely defeated.

DSI can still very well be defeated. There is quite a juggernaut against it getting lots of free advertising at the moment.





The reason is crime, that is about all that is needed there. But you choose your own for your own position.


"The reason is crime"
My fear is that this initiative will tie up the forces of law and order in handling a huge increase in cases of appeal. Consequently they will have less time available to actually catch criminals.


In this case my forecast is that if this initiative is implemented then it will result in an increase in crimes
The law of unintended consequences strikes again.
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  #592  
Old 04.02.2016, 21:18
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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Glad to hear nobody is actually against deporting criminal foreigners. It really is the most sensible thing to do. For a moment there, I thought someone was up in arms about "da man" oppressing the poor foreigner again. Foreigners are valued and appreciated in Switzerland, and its somewhat irresponsible to try to alienate them from the rest of the society. That isn't the SVP doing that, its those accusing the SVP of doing that.

The AI is watered down to a point that deporting a criminal will be so subjective, with little standards, that it will not likely to be applicable in most cases. The DSI is an attempt to reiterate what AI was with less ambiguity. Hence my support of it. Yes, i agree it appears to over-reach, but expectations are it will undergo review, and it you truly are not against deporting criminals and support AI, then I think its essentially the same aim. The difference may be the SVP gets bragging rights if they win, which I believe will peeve you to no end. But hell, in a democracy, nobody always gets what they want. You just live with what you get.

Done deal for me either way, unless you still have a problem with that.

"Done deal for me either way," so your promise to consult a lawyer and vote no if they confirm the initiative is written not to be moderated was just another lie?
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  #593  
Old 04.02.2016, 21:27
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

Ah yes...thirdos, I will have to ask them about that the next time we meet up...
The group I met up with are all in their 20s and extremely early 30s. They are the young faces of Switzerland and feel they are being targeted the most by all of this, which is understandable.
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Old 04.02.2016, 21:29
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

You can't derive that from the chart.

However, there's a fair chance for those commiting a murder to commit additional crimes. If memory serves first offenders have 30-40% to come back, 2nd-and-above offenders have more than 50% chance to commit another crime. I can't find the statistics but this paper says roughly the same:
After serving the sentence the again-sentencing ratio is 48% for the two prisons queried.
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  #595  
Old 04.02.2016, 21:47
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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You can't derive that from the chart.

However, there's a fair chance for those commiting a murder to commit additional crimes. If memory serves first offenders have 30-40% to come back, 2nd-and-above offenders have more than 50% chance to commit another crime. I can't find the statistics but this paper says roughly the same:
After serving the sentence the again-sentencing ratio is 48% for the two prisons queried.
According to the figures I found in the Amt for statistics there were no repeat crimes of murder.

Most murders are family affairs so it is unlikely murderers would commit other crimes? Happy to be proved wrong?
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  #596  
Old 04.02.2016, 22:52
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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I honestly care about my country and I can say it is my country. But that gives me equal right to say I am ashamed that my country is taking this road.
That shrill overreaction of how Switzerland will all of a sudden becomes some merciless pariah state without law is absolute nonsense. That approach of arguing against DSI is counter productive, and will not accomplish much. It is also quite deceitful and hyperbolic.

Switzerland has some of the most lenient sentencing guidelines in the world. There is no plan to change that. That makes sense for a civilized society. But it cannot be allowed to be gamed and exploited. Otherwise, it will ruin society for everybody else.

If this law is ever applied to a secondo or a foreigner, it will not be because Switzerland decided to criminalize a particular group. It will be because certain persons broke certain laws.

These laws are not much different than what is already found in other countries, the US and the UK for example. For example, there are three strike laws in the US that have mandatory sentencing. Are these also pariah states? Do you actually know of a country that does not have such laws? Oh, wait, maybe North Korea does not.

Laws are a fact of life in a civilized world. In fact, it is what holds civilization together.
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Old 04.02.2016, 23:00
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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That shrill overreaction of how Switzerland will all of a sudden becomes some merciless pariah state without law is absolute nonsense. That approach of arguing against DSI is counter productive, and will not accomplish much. It is also quite deceitful and hyperbolic.

Switzerland has some of the most lenient sentencing guidelines in the world. There is no plan to change that. That makes sense for a civilized society. But it cannot be allowed to be gamed and exploited. Otherwise, it will ruin society for everybody else.

If this law is ever applied to a secondo or a foreigner, it will not be because Switzerland decided to criminalize a particular group. It will be because certain persons broke certain laws.

These laws are not much different than what is already found in other countries, the US and the UK for example. For example, there are three strike laws in the US that have mandatory sentencing. Are these also pariah states? Do you actually know of a country that does not have such laws? Oh, wait, maybe North Korea does not.

Laws are a fact of life in a civilized world. In fact, it is what holds civilization together.


"there are three strike laws in the US that have mandatory sentencing" Not any more, the Supreme Court decided they were unconstitutional.


More Phos disinformation
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Old 04.02.2016, 23:03
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

You're misleading people. Automatic sentencing occurs in lawful countries. Three strike laws are still applied in some states of the US. DSI is no different from automatically sentenced law.

I have an example of a childhood friend in the US. He was a permanent resident with a green card. Succeeded quite well financial, becoming a dentist with a huge franchise practice. Sort of started living larger than life, with a flashy collection of cars, and somewhat arrogant.

Anyway, he neglected to renew his green card after it expired. But he travelled outside the country. On his return, knowing his green card was no longer valid, he decided risking the US Citizen line. Oftentimes, they simply waved people through. But this time, thy stopped him and asked if he was a US Citizen, and he said, "Yes".

HUGE mistake. Apparently, there is a law that bans a person from the country if they should ever misrepresent themselves as a US Citizen and lie to immigration border people. They checked, found out he lied, and banned him from the country.

He lost EVERYTHING. His business, his house, and his normal life. He lived in the US for most of his life. He's still trying to figure out after ten years if and when he will ever get back into the country.

There are laws. These things happen. Its a fact of life. It sucks sometimes. But sorry, laws have to be obeyed.
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  #599  
Old 04.02.2016, 23:07
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

Laws are a fact of life in a civilized world. In fact, it is what holds civilization together.

Indeed, and that is why the Judges have to be able to assess and uphold the law- exactly what we have been saying- for days! Glad you got there in the end.
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Old 04.02.2016, 23:09
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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You're misleading people. Automatic sentencing occurs in lawful countries. Three strike laws are still applied in some states of the US. DSI is no different from automatically sentenced law.

I have an example of a childhood friend in the US. He was a permanent resident with a green card. Succeeded quite well financial, becoming a dentist with a huge franchise practice. Sort of started living larger than life, with a flashy collection of cars, and somewhat arrogant.

Anyway, he neglected to renew his green card after it expired. But he travelled outside the country. On his return, knowing his green card was no longer valid, he decided risking the US Citizen line. Oftentimes, they simply waved people through. But this time, thy stopped him and asked if he was a US Citizen, and he said, "Yes".

HUGE mistake. Apparently, there is a law that bans a person from the country if they should ever misrepresent themselves as a US Citizen and lie to immigration border people. They checked, found out he lied, and banned him from the country.

He lost EVERYTHING. His business, his house, and his normal life. He lived in the US for most of his life. He's still trying to figure out after ten years if and when he will ever get back into the country.

There are laws. These things happen. Its a fact of life. It sucks sometimes. But sorry, laws have to be obeyed.


Ah the mystical and desperate sound of one hand clapping


Great example of the problems of automatic sentencing with no judge involvement!
Which side are you supporting again?
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