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  #601  
Old 04.02.2016, 23:18
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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You're misleading people. Automatic sentencing occurs in lawful countries. Three strike laws are still applied in some states of the US. DSI is no different from automatically sentenced law.

I have an example of a childhood friend in the US. He was a permanent resident with a green card. Succeeded quite well financial, becoming a dentist with a huge franchise practice. Sort of started living larger than life, with a flashy collection of cars, and somewhat arrogant.

Anyway, he neglected to renew his green card after it expired. But he travelled outside the country. On his return, knowing his green card was no longer valid, he decided risking the US Citizen line. Oftentimes, they simply waved people through. But this time, thy stopped him and asked if he was a US Citizen, and he said, "Yes".

HUGE mistake. Apparently, there is a law that bans a person from the country if they should ever misrepresent themselves as a US Citizen and lie to immigration border people. They checked, found out he lied, and banned him from the country.

He lost EVERYTHING. His business, his house, and his normal life. He lived in the US for most of his life. He's still trying to figure out after ten years if and when he will ever get back into the country.

There are laws. These things happen. Its a fact of life. It sucks sometimes. But sorry, laws have to be obeyed.

Are you sure this is a true story?


I quote "To re-enter the United States, the Customs & Border Protection (CBP) officer will require valid proof of your lawful permanent resident status. An expired green card is not considered valid proof of permanent resident status, and you should expect a major delay. In most cases, it means a long delay and a re-entry fee of $585. "
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  #602  
Old 04.02.2016, 23:23
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

Supreme Court Strikes Down Unconstitutional ‘Three Strikes’ Law

The Three Strikes Laws across the nation have now been gutted so that in the states where this approach has been implemented, it must be completely rewritten now if it is to exist at all.

source
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  #603  
Old 04.02.2016, 23:40
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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Supreme Court Strikes Down Unconstitutional ‘Three Strikes’ Law

The Three Strikes Laws across the nation have now been gutted so that in the states where this approach has been implemented, it must be completely rewritten now if it is to exist at all.

source

Automatic sentencing continues to happen in many other forms. A judge is not required to decide the length of a sentence. You'll see this in mandatory sentences for drug crimes, for example. And there are graduated sentences based on the number of offences.

The allegation that "automatism" is counter to law is absolutely false.

Furthermore, anyone notice how the UK routinely deports foreign criminals? The US can deport for a multitude of small infractions, eve such as forgery, without even a trial.

This allegation that Switzerland suddenly becomes a pariah state is absolute rubbish, and a desperate scare tactic that wears off as soon as someone is informed that it is normal practice elsewhere.
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  #604  
Old 04.02.2016, 23:44
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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It is logical and rational. The FDP also believes in deporting criminals, but not through this SVP initiative:
http://www.fdp.ch/kommunikation/1178...nitiative.html

If DSI fails, it doesn't mean the whole idea is scrapped. Someone will take up the responsibility to put forth another initiative.
FDP president speaks clearly against this initiative, in Geman language here

Some comments from Philipp Müller
  • This initiative has only ridicule and scorn for the rule of law.
  • It is an attack on Switzerland and its legal system.
  • Many foreign criminals will not worry about a banishment, because they have no permanent residence permit. 60 percent of convicted foreigners have no permit - for pre-trial detainees it is 75 percent.
  • This SVP initiative will mainly reach only people who committed minor offenses - "Ruthlessly and without any sense of proportion"
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  #605  
Old 04.02.2016, 23:49
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

FDP Politics. The scorn for what he calls the "rule of law" and the "attack on the Swiss legal system" is really this counter initiative by the SVP that challenges how politicians watered down AI to be barely applicable in a majority of cases.

If the SP had worked with the SVP in the crafting of AI, this DSI would not have been necessary. But because they confrontatively crafted AI, despite the SVP's rejection of their version, you have the DSI. So if this passes, it is just as much because of the SP's doing. They should have cooperated.
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  #606  
Old 04.02.2016, 23:52
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

Of course we all are in favour of deporting criminals- after the due process of the LAW- just as you said, a legal system is what holds a civilised country together.
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  #607  
Old 04.02.2016, 23:59
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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Automatic sentencing continues to happen in many other forms. A judge is not required to decide the length of a sentence. You'll see this in mandatory sentences for drug crimes, for example. And there are graduated sentences based on the number of offences.

The allegation that "automatism" is counter to law is absolutely false.

Furthermore, anyone notice how the UK routinely deports foreign criminals? The US can deport for a multitude of small infractions, eve such as forgery, without even a trial.

This allegation that Switzerland suddenly becomes a pariah state is absolute rubbish, and a desperate scare tactic that wears off as soon as someone is informed that it is normal practice elsewhere.
Well the UK does not deport people born in UK.

The European Court of Justice looks set to rule foreign criminals cannot be automatically deported because it would breach their children's rights to live as EU citizens, in what would be a significant blow to the UK.

ALMOST 2,000 foreign rapists, murderers and paedophiles have been booted out of the UK over a 12 month period - but HUNDREDS of those have launched eleventh-hour legals challenges to reverse their deportation at a huge potential cost to the taxpayer.

The UK Home Office has defended the use of private jets to deport foreign criminals and failed asylum seekers from the country. The cost incurred on deporting people in 2014-2015 was at £29.6m ($45m), which accounts for flight tickets, charter flights and the costs of ticket contract management.
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  #608  
Old 05.02.2016, 00:10
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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FDP Politics. The scorn for what he calls the "rule of law" and the "attack on the Swiss legal system" is really this counter initiative by the SVP that challenges how politicians watered down AI to be barely applicable in a majority of cases.

If the SP had worked with the SVP in the crafting of AI, this DSI would not have been necessary. But because they confrontatively crafted AI, despite the SVP's rejection of their version, you have the DSI. So if this passes, it is just as much because of the SP's doing. They should have cooperated.
"this counter initiative by the SVP that challenges how politicians watered down AI"

Completely not true, the final form of the AI was voted on in May 2015 whereas the SVP launched this initiative in 2012; three years before they knew what the AI law would look like (watered down or not!).
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  #609  
Old 05.02.2016, 00:22
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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ALMOST 2,000 foreign rapists, murderers and paedophiles have been booted out of the UK over a 12 month period - but HUNDREDS of those have launched eleventh-hour legals challenges to reverse their deportation at a huge potential cost to the taxpayer.
They should be allowed back in, contingent upon penectomy and castration - not one of the two, not chemical castration; both surgically done.
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  #610  
Old 05.02.2016, 08:44
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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They should be allowed back in, contingent upon penectomy and castration - not one of the two, not chemical castration; both surgically done.
*face palm*
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Old 05.02.2016, 09:10
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

Parliament and especially the SP never took AI sincerely. It took them about 5 years to finally get to it. When they implemented it, they insisted on the Haertefallklaus, and would not collaborate with the authors of AI on the implemenation.

Haertefall? At the time, I was wondering what potatoes had to do with any of it. It turns out they used language as such that any and all cases can be averted by showing hardship. "You can't deport me because my hair hurts". WTF? It WAS NOT the AI voters voted for. It was business as usual, corrupted criminal courts, flooding Switzerland with foreigners, many of whome had a propensity to commit crime. Must be that same EU retardation streak that have been making rounds in Europe destroying societies and cultures. The people asked for a steak, and they served them a Haertefallklaus?

DSI was necessary. And now they claim DSI is an affront to rule of law and justice. NO IT IS NOT AT ALL. THAT is fearmongering. The DSI is an affront to their irresponsible concept of governing where they purport to be the masters of herds of sheep.

For me, passing the DSI is also about accountability for the government. The leftists don't have a very healthy concept of that. They think life should be ruled by their bureaucracy. We'll see if the Swiss are awake enough to catch this, or if they would rather acquiesce to sheepherders.
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  #612  
Old 05.02.2016, 09:11
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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Of course we all are in favour of deporting criminals- after the due process of the LAW- just as you said, a legal system is what holds a civilised country together.
Why am I seeing this? Is the ignore function not working?
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  #613  
Old 05.02.2016, 09:39
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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Even better why not read both this initiative and the thread before commenting?


If you did you would find out that nobody is actually against deporting criminal foreigners; there is already a law for deporting criminal foreigners.


This initiative is about automating the process so judges are unable to apply leniency in appropriate cases.
For example, someone who was borne here, went to school here, is married with children and then steals an apple or an old bicycle is automatically deported.
Leaving wife and children to live off social services at our cost.
I have read the thread. It just keeps on repeating itself, much the same as the left wing politicians keep repeating non-truths about this initiative.

As far as I have read the news - the SVP`s policy here is that it is NOT the "bagatelle" crimes for deporting ...... but the serious crimes. The smaller crimes are for repeated offenders. It is not about breaking up families, the entire family gets deported. Those who can`t control their juveniles or other family members simply get sent back to their home countries.
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Old 05.02.2016, 09:57
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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I have read the thread. It just keeps on repeating itself, much the same as the left wing politicians keep repeating non-truths about this initiative.

As far as I have read the news - the SVP`s policy here is that it is NOT the "bagatelle" crimes for deporting ...... but the serious crimes. The smaller crimes are for repeated offenders. It is not about breaking up families, the entire family gets deported. Those who can`t control their juveniles or other family members simply get sent back to their home countries.


"the left wing politicians keep repeating non-truths about this initiative." Do you have examples of non-truths?


"As far as I have read the news" Try reading the initiative, not the news.


"SVP`s policy here is that it is NOT the "bagatelle" crimes for deporting.." Both the initiative and the Swiss Justice minister clearly state that two trivial crimes in 10 years will get you automatically deported.
The Justice minister also said the SVP are lying about this.


"the entire family gets deported" where on earth did you get this from? (talking about repeating non-truths).


"sent back to their home countries" makes it sound quite friendly. I assume people who get sent back to a country their grandparents came from might not regard I as "home" especially if they have never visited it and do not speak the language.
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Old 05.02.2016, 10:00
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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I have read the thread. It just keeps on repeating itself, much the same as the left wing politicians keep repeating non-truths about this initiative.

As far as I have read the news - the SVP`s policy here is that it is NOT the "bagatelle" crimes for deporting ...... but the serious crimes. The smaller crimes are for repeated offenders. It is not about breaking up families, the entire family gets deported. Those who can`t control their juveniles or other family members simply get sent back to their home countries.
Well, you must mean repeated BAGATELLE crimes. Serious Crime and REPEATED BAGATELLE crimes will result in deportation automatically.

"It is not about breaking up families, the entire family gets deported. Those who can`t control their juveniles or other family members simply get sent back to their home countries"
Well, lets just put aside the matter of punishing innocents for the crimes of another i.e deporting WHOLE families for the crimes of ONE MEMBER of the family (something thats just COMPLETELY wrong and unjust), people that are born here, grew up here, whose parents/grandparents were born and grew up here too, but have a foreign passport CANNOT and SHOULD NOT be deported to their "Home countries" because they have no social or emotional ties to their so-called "home countries". Thats completely and utterly UNJUST and IMMORAL.
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  #616  
Old 05.02.2016, 10:04
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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Parliament and especially the SP never took AI sincerely. It took them about 5 years to finally get to it. When they implemented it, they insisted on the Haertefallklaus, and would not collaborate with the authors of AI on the implemenation.

Haertefall? At the time, I was wondering what potatoes had to do with any of it. It turns out they used language as such that any and all cases can be averted by showing hardship. "You can't deport me because my hair hurts". WTF? It WAS NOT the AI voters voted for. It was business as usual, corrupted criminal courts, flooding Switzerland with foreigners, many of whome had a propensity to commit crime. Must be that same EU retardation streak that have been making rounds in Europe destroying societies and cultures. The people asked for a streak, and they served them a Haertefallklaus?

DSI was necessary. And now they claim DSI is an affront to rule of law and justice. NO IT IS NOT AT ALL. THAT is fearmongering. The DSI is an affront to their irresponsible concept of governing where they purport to be the masters of herds of sheep.

For me, passing the DSI is also about accountability for the government. The leftists don't have a very healthy concept of that. They think life should be ruled by their bureaucracy. We'll see if the Swiss are awake enough to catch this, or if they would rather acquiesce to sheepherders.

"The people asked for a streak" They wanted the politicians to run around naked


"Haertefall? At the time, I was wondering what potatoes ..." I assume you are thinking of "Herdapfel" - with your usual disregard for accurate statements?
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Old 05.02.2016, 10:10
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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"It is not about breaking up families, the entire family gets deported. Those who can`t control their juveniles or other family members simply get sent back to their home countries"
Well, lets just put aside the matter of punishing innocents for the crimes of another i.e deporting WHOLE families for the crimes of ONE MEMBER of the family (something thats just COMPLETELY wrong and unjust), people that are born here, grew up here, whose parents/grandparents were born and grew up here too, but have a foreign passport CANNOT and SHOULD NOT be deported to their "Home countries" because they have no social or emotional ties to their so-called "home countries". Thats completely and utterly UNJUST and IMMORAL.
I can agree with the non hyperbolic version of this. There are cases where I think it would be unjust and immoral, but not completely and utterly. There would be cases where it would be more just and moral to deport the whole family rather than separate them.

I believe a Zuercher SVP lawyer also argued against the Secondo situation on his own. I agree this Secondo situation should be moderated before DSI is implemented. They should have worked this out in AI, but they stopped conversing.

As for deporting whole families, Liberal Feminist Joy Brighton makes a case where it would be more ethical to deport a whole family rather than individuals in terrorist cases:
http://www.breitbart.com/big-governm...ng-in-america/

Again, with any initiative that is passed, it is discussed within parliament on how it will be worded. It is then voted on before implemented.
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Old 05.02.2016, 10:12
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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"The people asked for a streak" They wanted the politicians to run around naked


"Haertefall? At the time, I was wondering what potatoes ..." I assume you are thinking of "Herdapfel" - with your usual disregard for accurate statements?

You see, apart from lack of sense of humor, I think you lack certain nuances in conversation that makes it somewhat tiresome to even respond to your comments. They often are so off point that I don't even bother responding to them. But that's alright. Is just a matter of managing expectations. Very high noise to signal ratio that I don't really care to add to.
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Old 05.02.2016, 10:16
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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I can agree with the non hyperbolic version of this. There are cases where I think it would be unjust and immoral, but not completely and utterly. There would be cases where it would be more just and moral to deport the whole family rather than separate them.

I believe a Zuercher SVP lawyer also argued against the Secondo situation on his own. I agree this Secondo situation should be moderated before DSI is implemented. They should have worked this out in AI, but they stopped conversing.

As for deporting whole families, Liberal Feminist Joy Brighton makes a case where it would be more ethical to deport a whole family rather than individuals in terrorist cases:
http://www.breitbart.com/big-governm...ng-in-america/

Again, with any initiative that is passed, it is discussed within parliament on how it will be worded. It is then voted on before implemented.
" They should have worked this out in AI" They did with your "potato" clause; something else you did not read I assume.


"it is discussed within parliament on how it will be worded" Did you discuss this with your lawyer friend and get it confirmed? I thought not!
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Old 05.02.2016, 10:16
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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And how many of those repeated the crime of murder after their conviction and serving their sentence?


I would assume none? So how will deportation improve anything?
Proved? Not really. For one you rely on, at best, deduction, that's far from proof. Second, by mixing different sub-threads you're quoting out of context. Not that you'd be quoting correctly in the first place as I didn't say murderers have 50% (or whatever) to commit another murder.

I'm not even sure such a claim could be derived at all as the number of cases may be too small to be statistically useful.
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