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  #101  
Old 20.01.2016, 11:01
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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But the foreigners must serve their sentences before they are deported.
That makes sense. Otherwise a foreigner can get away with murder.
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  #102  
Old 20.01.2016, 14:52
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

Article today in Tagesanzeiger listing 18 statements by Blocher and then their research on each topic about which results do and do not support the Aytollah, source here.
Article in German language; Google translate is not bad.

Why do I post it here?

Because it came up with some interesting facts that relate to this topic.

1. It is not judges who have the final word on who is deported; it is the Migration "Amt" in each Kanton.

2. There are no national statistics kept on how many criminal foreigners are deported; each Kanton keeps it's own numbers, or not, no obligation to keep numbers!
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  #103  
Old 20.01.2016, 15:14
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

This is particularly interesting because Blocher, as former head of the EJPD (federal department on justice and police), should be aware in detail about who's responsible for which aspect.
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  #104  
Old 20.01.2016, 15:16
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

Doesn't that separation make sense? One is the court that punishes a crime, the other is the immigration office with a criteria of who they revoke. And the two need not know what the other does.
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  #105  
Old 20.01.2016, 15:23
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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Its for plugging a loophole for crimes intentionally committed by foreigners due to leniency of the Swiss justice system. A mentioned earlier, Swiss jails can be seen an attractive retirement plan for less privileged foreigners. The actual implementation is questionable, as it requires quality data. The data may not always be available, but the principle of the law is solid. It can be bolstered later with better data, or additional measures.
You nearly had me with that. I mean literaly. I was laughing on the floor, my office mates thoughd I had a heart attack.


All the crimes where you really, really make the money, are deporation risk free. The initiative is a total joke.
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  #106  
Old 20.01.2016, 15:28
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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You nearly had me with that. I mean literaly. I was laughing on the floor, my office mates thoughd I had a heart attack.

All the crimes where you really, really make the money, are deporation risk free. The initiative is a total joke.

I think you're confused, so you're laughter may be kinda insane looking.

For example, say I am rice farmer in Indonesia, or a goat herder in Mexico, and in need of an early retirement plan. I suppose I can come to Switzerland and kill someone, and get me food and shelter for what, 5, 10, 20 years? That is not a smart situation to leave dangling around out there in the real world. Such people who can make money are not likely to do such a thing. There are people who kill for a lot less.
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  #107  
Old 20.01.2016, 15:52
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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This is particularly interesting because Blocher, as former head of the EJPD (federal department on justice and police), should be aware in detail about who's responsible for which aspect.
Unfortunately, whether he knows or not wont be in voters minds come Feb 28th, but only what the SVP propaganda manages to convince them about.

Going by the history of these initiatives, that usually involves
1. making up some BS that appeals to Swiss exceptionalism
e.g. the EU will be forced to renegotiate the bilaterals if the brave voters of CH make a stand and unilaterally opt out of free movement of people.

2. create ignorance about laws already on the books
e.g. - The last time this initiative was introduced the country was flush with posters claiming that rapists and assault perpetrators could end up getting naturalized.

With the new year assaults in Cologne fresh in everyone`s minds, at this time the posters are relatively tame. Despite there being no mass refugee influx into Switzerland, by the 2nd half of February I expect the tone to get much nastier.

Unlike the minaret ban, this one will eventually land at the ECHR because of the way this is worded. Sooner or later the authorities will try to deport second and third generation teenagers to countries they have never set foot in, for "serious" offences such as getting into more than one punch-up with a classmate who happens to already have a red passport.

I still fail to understand how (other than the "logic" of bigotry) a person who has grown up in Switzerland is somehow the responsibility of a country they have no clue about. I also doubt that other countries will happily let CH export its problems so readily.
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  #108  
Old 20.01.2016, 16:07
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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I think you're confused, so you're laughter may be kinda insane looking.

For example, say I am rice farmer in Indonesia, or a goat herder in Mexico, and in need of an early retirement plan. I suppose I can come to Switzerland and kill someone, and get me food and shelter for what, 5, 10, 20 years? That is not a smart situation to leave dangling around out there in the real world. Such people who can make money are not likely to do such a thing. There are people who kill for a lot less.
Let see. So you believe that:
- That people who cannot afford a plane ticket, and probably illiterate to boot
- will somehow travel thousands of miles to CH
- kill a CH citizen
- and then give themselves up to the police so that they can live out their lives in a swiss prison and die alone, continents away from friends and family?

And you think other posters are confused / insane?

Btw, I think the cushy prison option is for Swiss criminals only
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  #109  
Old 20.01.2016, 16:20
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

eh, no. I believe that we should simply reduce the prison population, and implement deterrents to crimes by foreigners. I don't know about you, but I say this because I have no intention whatsoever of committing one.

I'm pretty certain I would vote for this. I think it has a good chance of passing.
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  #110  
Old 20.01.2016, 16:32
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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eh, no. I believe that we should simply reduce the prison population, and implement deterrents to crimes by foreigners. I don't know about you, but I say this because I have no intention whatsoever of committing one.

I'm pretty certain I would vote for this. I think it has a good chance of passing.
Just read back your own post about Mexicans and Indonesians.

Since implying that I am here to commit crimes is the best response you can provide, in the vain hope that you are actually capable of cognitive reasoning, here is some information.

"Some research has shown that increasing the severity of a punishment does not have much effect on crime, while increasing the certainty of punishment does have a deterrent effect."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deterr...#Effectiveness

Wright, Valerie (November 2010). "Deterrence in Criminal Justice: Evaluating Certainty vs. Severity of Punishment" (PDF). The Sentencing Project. Retrieved 13 October 2012.
http://www.sentencingproject.org/doc...riefing%20.pdf

This initiative moves law enforcement resources from catching more criminals to punishing (deporting) them, so yeah, the prison population might decrease, because fewer criminals get caught to begin with.
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  #111  
Old 20.01.2016, 16:37
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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With the new year assaults in Cologne fresh in everyone`s minds, at this time the posters are relatively tame. Despite there being no mass refugee influx into Switzerland, by the 2nd half of February I expect the tone to get much nastier.

Unlike the minaret ban, this one will eventually land at the ECHR because of the way this is worded. Sooner or later the authorities will try to deport second and third generation teenagers to countries they have never set foot in, for "serious" offences such as getting into more than one punch-up with a classmate who happens to already have a red passport.

I still fail to understand how (other than the "logic" of bigotry) a person who has grown up in Switzerland is somehow the responsibility of a country they have no clue about. I also doubt that other countries will happily let CH export its problems so readily.
Yes, Cologne is a boon for this referendum.

I don't think teenagers are in danger of being deported as the criminal law for the young (Jugendstrafrecht) applies before age 18, in which case the relevant paragraphs differ from those named by the referendum.

However I have little problems per se with Secondos potentially getting deported: They have (had) a choice, and every decision has its consequences.

It's the other country's responsibility because said person is its citizen, that's internationally accepted standard. I don't know what it takes for the other country to accept the deportee, but that problem has existed for a long time already so I'd assume treaties and procedures are in place.

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eh, no. I believe that we should simply reduce the prison population, and implement deterrents to crimes by foreigners. I don't know about you, but I say this because I have no intention whatsoever of committing one.

I'm pretty certain I would vote for this. I think it has a good chance of passing.
Yeah, harsher sentences work. Just look at the USA, IIRC more than one percent of the population is behind bars at any time.

You must be cowering in fear of being killed by some random foreigner looking for three meals a day. Come to think of, since you're probably one yourself the person you should afraid of most should be you.
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  #112  
Old 20.01.2016, 16:39
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

Politically motivated criminology theory? Hmm, compared to statistical reality, I'll go with reality. There is proportionately more foreigners in Swiss prison. Are you able to grasp that?


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As for Phos:
He must be cowering in fear of being killed by some random foreigner looking for three meals a day. Come to think of it, since he's probably one himself the person to be most afraid of should be himself.
Hmm, I'm trying to get myself deported? Duh, when run out of ideas, try an ad hominem.
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  #113  
Old 20.01.2016, 16:45
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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Politically motivated criminology theory? Hmm, compared to statistical reality, I'll go with reality. There is proportionately more foreigners in Swiss prison. Are you able to grasp that?
You keep not addressing the reasons I gave above. There's an obvious reason.
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Hmm, I'm trying to get myself deported? Duh, when run out of ideas, try an ad hominem.
Read what you said.
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Old 20.01.2016, 16:47
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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You keep not addressing the reasons I gave above. There's an obvious reason.

Read what you said.
I probably ignored it because it looked like the typical garbage you post that doesn't have much value.

Read the silly follow up posts you come up with on all the other threads.
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  #115  
Old 20.01.2016, 16:51
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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Politically motivated criminology theory? Hmm, compared to statistical reality, I'll go with reality. There is proportionately more foreigners in Swiss prison. Are you able to grasp that?




Hmm, I'm trying to get myself deported? Duh, when run out of ideas, try an ad hominem.

About "There is proportionately more foreigners in Swiss prison." So? Foreigners will be only deported after serving their sentences in Swiss prison so there will still be "proportionately more foreigners in Swiss prison."
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  #116  
Old 20.01.2016, 16:53
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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However I have little problems per se with Secondos potentially getting deported: They have (had) a choice, and every decision has its consequences.

It's the other country's responsibility because said person is its citizen, that's internationally accepted standard. I don't know what it takes for the other country to accept the deportee, but that problem has existed for a long time already so I'd assume treaties and procedures are in place.
Secondos did not choose to be born here. They are part of this society, for better or worse.

So I do not agree that they should receive a much harsher punishment than a Swiss person who commits the same crime.

AFAIK countries are not obligated to take back every citizen. They can and do refuse on a case by case basis.

http://articles.latimes.com/2005/nov...cal/me-detain6

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/...-bec/?page=all
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  #117  
Old 20.01.2016, 16:55
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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I probably ignored it because it looked like the typical garbage you post that doesn't have much value.

Read the silly follow up posts you come up with on all the other threads.

I notice when you run out of valid arguments you write this sort of post or claim people have a mental illness, hmm!
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Old 20.01.2016, 16:59
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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Secondos did not choose to be born here. They are part of this society, for better or worse.

So I do not agree that they should receive a much harsher punishment than a Swiss person who commits the same crime.
I actually agree with you on this point, and I am not sure how they will apply it. I believe there are some reasonable clauses in deportation laws a guidelines that prevent cruel or unusual situations. Regardless, I am more motivated about the proper carrying out of justice, which from the many instances I have heard of, is not being done sufficiently in Switzerland. I would still vote in favor of this, as it calls for a stricter adherence to law.

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I notice when you run out of valid arguments you write this sort of post or claim people have a mental illness, hmm!
You mean when you don't get the answer you want? Ha!
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  #119  
Old 20.01.2016, 17:07
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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I actually agree with you on this point, and I am not sure how they will apply it. I believe there are some reasonable clauses in deportation laws a guidelines that prevent cruel or unusual situations.
Good to know.

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Regardless, I am more motivated about the proper carrying out of justice, which from the many instances I have heard of, is not being done sufficiently in Switzerland. I would still vote in favor of this, as it calls for a stricter adherence to law.
And then you contradict yourself in the second half of the same post, since this initiative is not about the proper carrying out of justice at all.

Do you realize that this initiative aims to completely get rid of, as you yourself put it, "guidelines that prevent cruel or unusual situations"?

Link to the initiative text below, in case you can read German, and would like to actually know what you are supporting:
http://www.svp.ch/kampagnen/uebersic...kampagneSubNav
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Old 20.01.2016, 17:09
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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Good to know.

And then you contradict yourself in the second half of the same post, since this initiative is not about the proper carrying out of justice at all.

Do you realize that this initiative aims to completely get rid of, as you yourself put it, "guidelines that prevent cruel or unusual situations"?

Link to the initiative text below, in case you can read German, and would like to actually know what you are supporting:
http://www.svp.ch/kampagnen/uebersic...kampagneSubNav

There are certain human rights that can't be overridden by a referendum. Even if it said something ambiguous, I don't believe they can deport someone somewhere if it meant a certain death or cruel and unusual circumstances. Not to say they shouldn't look into it and try.
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