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  #141  
Old 21.01.2016, 16:50
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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Law inforcement normally include Judges who assess the situation- the UDC wants to stop Judges from doing so to ensure it is done fairly.
I'm not sure that is true. Judges will continue to try cases and sentence as they see fit. But the immigration status of the criminal is not in the same judge's purview.
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  #142  
Old 21.01.2016, 17:03
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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I'm not sure that is true. Judges will continue to try cases and sentence as they see fit. But the immigration status of the criminal is not in the same judge's purview.
You still do not understand the initiative do you Sigh!

For the nth time; the objective of the initiative is to force judges to sentence criminals to deportation for a defined list of crimes so they will no longer sentence as they see fit.
The immigration offices in the various Kantons will then process these deportation sentences as they see fit.
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  #143  
Old 21.01.2016, 17:56
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

Have you even read the initiative. This is exactly what it is for- ensuring that the system by-passes Judges and courts and enforces exportation whatever the circumstances and without appeal.
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  #144  
Old 21.01.2016, 18:17
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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Are these convicted prisoners or a combination of criminals and those awaiting a hearing?
it's the combination.
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  #145  
Old 21.01.2016, 19:03
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

Its done by rule and criteria, and doesn't force judges to rule in any particular way. It decouples the judges' decision from deportation altogether.
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  #146  
Old 21.01.2016, 19:05
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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Are these convicted prisoners or a combination of criminals and those awaiting a hearing?
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it's the combination.
Also includes 4,800 people who served their sentences and are awaiting deportation (possibly forever).
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  #147  
Old 21.01.2016, 19:06
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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Its done by rule and criteria, and doesn't force judges to rule in any particular way. It decouples the judges' decision from deportation altogether.
You really have not read and understood the initiative have you?
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  #148  
Old 21.01.2016, 19:21
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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You really have not read and understood the initiative have you?
Most don't understand it or know enough about it. There is already a new law (in french) that has been voted by parliament in March 2015 that implements the 2009 initiative of SVP.
The new initiative is just political marketing by SVP but also presents a risk by transforming the country into a banana republic where foreigners are being handled without the involvement of judges especially for petty offenses.
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  #149  
Old 21.01.2016, 19:31
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

Wouldn't this law give the Swiss nationals the advantage over foreigners on matter of oppressing, bullying or threatening behaviors as the foreigner would be too frightened to defend himself in case the police or court find the foreigner guilty due to intended or unintended injustice.

The alternative for good longstanding law abiding expats would be to naturalize themselves, but I wouldn't want to go through the lengthy & high costs of naturalization and potentially humiliate myself in case of rejection.

If the SVP are really fearful of petty criminals then they could always implement the chopping of hands for theft and hanging for murderers, rapists and adulterers as per the Abrahamic laws.

On a side note, i've just seen some SVP posters and I do smile when I see the poster about the black and white sheep. I must confess, I do find both sheeps very cute.
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  #150  
Old 21.01.2016, 19:36
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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Wouldn't this law give the Swiss nationals the advantage over foreigners on matter of oppressing, bullying or threatening behaviors as the foreigner would be too frightened to defend himself in case the police or court find the foreigner guilty due to intended or unintended injustice.

The alternative for good longstanding law abiding expats would be to naturalize themselves, but I wouldn't want to go through the lengthy & high costs of naturalization and potentially humiliate myself in case of rejection.

If the SVP are really fearful of petty criminals then they could always implement the chopping of hands for theft and hanging for murderers, rapists and adulterers as per the Abrahamic laws.

On a side note, i've just seen some SVP posters and I do smile when I see the poster about the black and white sheep. I must confess, I do find both sheeps very cute.
About "Wouldn't this law give the Swiss nationals the advantage over foreigners on matter of oppressing, bullying or threatening behaviors a..."
Exactly!
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  #151  
Old 21.01.2016, 19:42
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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Most don't understand it or know enough about it. There is already a new law (in french) that has been voted by parliament in March 2015 that implements the 2009 initiative of SVP.
The new initiative is just political marketing by SVP but also presents a risk by transforming the country into a banana republic where foreigners are being handled without the involvement of judges especially for petty offenses.
Also in German here.
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  #152  
Old 21.01.2016, 21:03
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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Also includes 4,800 people who served their sentences and are awaiting deportation (possibly forever).
Given that foreign nationals are also remanded until trial unless they can prove they won't leave the country (who can with schengen?) Does this not account for the number excess foreigners in the prisons? Many of them are just awaiting trial.

see here: http://www.prisonstudies.org/sites/d..._edition_1.pdf

Page 5 of 6. Switzerland's percentage of the remand/total prison population is 40.6%. If police are given SVP newspapers and paraphernalia that constantly tell them criminals are foreign, aren't they more likely to suspect and hold foreigners on remand despite there being little evidence?

What I'd like to find is the breakdown of the Remand:Bailed numbers by nationality in Switzerland. Then we might have some more clarity on this.
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  #153  
Old 22.01.2016, 10:44
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

Moving beyond all the intricacies this thread has descended into, just wondering about the legalistic implications.

This vote is not about cancelling out the previous vote. That will stay no matter what. This vote is just about implementing the previous vote. Now what if this vote returns a no. The previous vote would still stand and still need to be implemented, no? Wouldn't this create a legal conundrum?
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  #154  
Old 22.01.2016, 11:00
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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You really have not read and understood the initiative have you?
You're talking about this?
https://www.admin.ch/ch/d/pore/vi/vis433t.html

Or commentaries of it?
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  #155  
Old 22.01.2016, 11:26
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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Moving beyond all the intricacies this thread has descended into, just wondering about the legalistic implications.

This vote is not about cancelling out the previous vote. That will stay no matter what. This vote is just about implementing the previous vote. Now what if this vote returns a no. The previous vote would still stand and still need to be implemented, no? Wouldn't this create a legal conundrum?
Ah now I`m beginning to understand all this voting that goes on in Switzerland!

First they have a vote. Then another vote to validate the first vote? If the first was a Yes, and the second a No, the first one still stands, so then another vote is called for to validate the original one. If a Yes returns, then that validates the first one, so another vote is called for to implement it. If that returns a No, they have another vote hoping for a No, but get a Yes, wait another couple years and vote again.

And if all this is not satisfactory to the powers that be, they simply make a new law about whatever the problem seems to be. No vote. Just a law. Makes sense to me. I think. But then why bother voting about things? Or is that to give the impression that the Volk have made the decision themselves?

Why not just have some intelligent politicians who are able to make decisions alone in the first place? Ahh but then it would not be a Democracy right?

I`m guessing that in the Bundesrat they have discussions that sound pretty much like here on EF!
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  #156  
Old 22.01.2016, 11:38
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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Moving beyond all the intricacies this thread has descended into, just wondering about the legalistic implications.

This vote is not about cancelling out the previous vote. That will stay no matter what. This vote is just about implementing the previous vote. Now what if this vote returns a no. The previous vote would still stand and still need to be implemented, no? Wouldn't this create a legal conundrum?
This is the most dangerous part of the SVP initiative and it's the main reason why I will vote NO. It's the first time in swiss history that a political party takes a dangerous action which is shortcutting the legislative power.

- SVP in 2009 pushed the initiative on banning foreign criminals. The text of the initiative did not include implementation details and it was left to the parliament (SVP agreed on that) to put the details of execution.

- SVP in 2012 were irritated by the slow discussions in parliament (too much discussions etc....). They started a new initiative with full details on implementation and it will modify the swiss constitution (majority of people & canton).

- in 2015 the parliament adopted the new law based on the 2009 initiative of SVP to a large majority. If the voting of 28 Feb 2016 is a NO, this law will be used there is no void situation here.


If the 28 February initiative is adopted, what does it mean:
1) the parliament (legislative power) was not involved in writing the article to be added to the constitution

2) the population can write laws directly in constitution without the moderation of parliament (emotional voting can be dangerous).

3) No judges involved anymore in handling criminal/petty offenses cases for foreigners. It's undermining the judicial power

Usually an initiative leads to parliament writing new laws and if it requires constitution change it will be worked by said parliament and then submitted to population vote.
Conclusion: undermining by SVP of both legislative and judicial power is very dangerous!!
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  #157  
Old 22.01.2016, 12:06
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

What you characterize as "undermining" is the normal legislative process in Swiss democracy. You'll see it in any form of democracies where there are checks and balances, with separation of powers. There should never be a "last word" accepted as some final decree.

Last edited by Phos; 22.01.2016 at 12:34.
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  #158  
Old 22.01.2016, 13:46
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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You're talking about this?
https://www.admin.ch/ch/d/pore/vi/vis433t.html

Or commentaries of it?

YES, the original and only the original


Or you could have looked at Post 10 in this thread which has this same link
Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative


to inform yourself; instead of waiting for post 154 before you got the urge to make informed comments?


Read at least this paragraph!


1. Das Gericht oder die Staatsanwaltschaft verweist Ausländerinnen und Ausländer, die wegen einer der folgenden strafbaren Handlungen verurteilt werden, unabhängig von der Höhe der Strafe aus dem Gebiet der Schweiz:
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  #159  
Old 22.01.2016, 14:24
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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This is the most dangerous part of the SVP initiative and it's the main reason why I will vote NO. It's the first time in swiss history that a political party takes a dangerous action which is shortcutting the legislative power.

- SVP in 2009 pushed the initiative on banning foreign criminals. The text of the initiative did not include implementation details and it was left to the parliament (SVP agreed on that) to put the details of execution.

- SVP in 2012 were irritated by the slow discussions in parliament (too much discussions etc....). They started a new initiative with full details on implementation and it will modify the swiss constitution (majority of people & canton).

- in 2015 the parliament adopted the new law based on the 2009 initiative of SVP to a large majority. If the voting of 28 Feb 2016 is a NO, this law will be used there is no void situation here.


If the 28 February initiative is adopted, what does it mean:
1) the parliament (legislative power) was not involved in writing the article to be added to the constitution

2) the population can write laws directly in constitution without the moderation of parliament (emotional voting can be dangerous).

3) No judges involved anymore in handling criminal/petty offenses cases for foreigners. It's undermining the judicial power

Usually an initiative leads to parliament writing new laws and if it requires constitution change it will be worked by said parliament and then submitted to population vote.
Conclusion: undermining by SVP of both legislative and judicial power is very dangerous!!

About "This is the most dangerous part of the SVP initiative "
I agree it is dangerous but for me the most dangerous part is this is a direct contradiction of the European convention on human rights.
The SVP initiative on FMOP was aimed at the bilateral agreements; this one is aimed at the human rights agreement
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Old 22.01.2016, 14:44
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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About "This is the most dangerous part of the SVP initiative "
I agree it is dangerous but for me the most dangerous part is this is a direct contradiction of the European convention on human rights.
The SVP initiative on FMOP was aimed at the bilateral agreements; this one is aimed at the human rights agreement

About the deportion of criminals being an affront to human rights; it is a law practiced in the US, the UK, and even now being talked about for criminals in Germany. I assume it is also practiced elsewhere.
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