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Old 12.01.2016, 08:28
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Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

Looks like the new law has good chances to pass in the vote on Feb. 28th. According to a recent poll 61% supports it:
http://www.20min.ch/schweiz/news/story/16150448

The new law consequences look very harsh and often disproportional. It is not just a multi-year convictions that would result in expulsion, but also little delinquency might get one deported.

http://www.letemps.ch/suisse/2016/01...0-etrangers-an
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Old 12.01.2016, 09:12
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

This is the bad side of democracy. Any rabble rouser can entice the population to vote on an emotional subject, and there are just as many Swiss citizen criminals that cannot be deported, and so the result will be that Swiss justice is no longer seen to be fair in Switzerland.

A second problem that presents itself is that deportation is only permitted when the criminal's home country is stable, and he will not be discriminated in his home country, e.g. if he is an Islamic homosexual he will be allowed to stay here.
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Old 12.01.2016, 20:11
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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...deportation is only permitted when the criminal's home country is stable, and he will not be discriminated in his home country, e.g. if he is an Islamic homosexual he will be allowed to stay here.
So, discrimination against people based on sexuality and nationality.
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Old 12.01.2016, 20:22
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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So, discrimination against people based on sexuality and nationality.
Welcome to Switzerland. From requiring your picture and age on your CV to women getting 50% of their pension if they are married.
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Old 13.01.2016, 13:45
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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women getting 50% of their pension if they are married.
It not just women who get 50% of their husband's pension, men get 50% of the wife's pension as well.

And, of course, only if they don't have separated assets.

Tom
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Old 13.01.2016, 09:10
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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So, discrimination against people based on sexuality and nationality.
Not at all: lesbianism is also homosexuality, nationality covers all nations.

I wrote (Or intended to mean) the deportation would not be implemented if the deportee would be in personal danger in the new country. Either due to a war situation there or due to the deportees religion or sexuality.
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Old 13.01.2016, 12:54
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

The first problem i have with this law is that it includes "put other people lives in danger", which means that one is deportable due to an accident while drunk, or did something really stupid. It may be a crime but expelling someone for doign something without criminal intent is a bit much.

The other common critique is that second/third generation foreigners are deported to a country they don't know much about anymore. Of course you could ask why they're not naturalized yet but it would have made sense to put a 10-year of continuous residence clause or something to solve this, I believe the phantomatic imported criminal would commit a crime in these 10 years.

And then american-style mandatory sentencing is not constitutional because it's not proportional. If they limited themselves murderers ok, but for other crimes circumstances can definitely matter, e.g. for drug offenses.

Small time criminals hardly get any prison time so the 3 years thing isn't that important imho.
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Old 13.01.2016, 13:13
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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The first problem i have with this law is that it includes "put other people lives in danger", which means that one is deportable due to an accident while drunk, or did something really stupid. It may be a crime but expelling someone for doign something without criminal intent is a bit much.

The other common critique is that second/third generation foreigners are deported to a country they don't know much about anymore. Of course you could ask why they're not naturalized yet but it would have made sense to put a 10-year of continuous residence clause or something to solve this, I believe the phantomatic imported criminal would commit a crime in these 10 years.

And then american-style mandatory sentencing is not constitutional because it's not proportional. If they limited themselves murderers ok, but for other crimes circumstances can definitely matter, e.g. for drug offenses.

Small time criminals hardly get any prison time so the 3 years thing isn't that important imho.
From what I have seen and heard about the Swiss judicial system, they tend to sentence on a much more lenient end. This referendum is part of the response to such decision, providing sentencing guidelines. I believe it would still be adjudicated by a lenient judge.

Another problem that is underneath this is the cost of maintaining prisoners. I have heard of some communities having to accommodate a repeat foreign offender in their communities to such a cost as they had to dramatically raise their taxes just for this one repeat offender. I can imagine how these are the kinds of voters that will vote for these. Unless situations like these are addressed, the calls for anti-crime measures will only get louder.
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Old 13.01.2016, 13:36
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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The first problem i have with this law is that it includes "put other people lives in danger", which means that one is deportable due to an accident while drunk, or did something really stupid. It may be a crime but expelling someone for doign something without criminal intent is a bit much.
Art. 129 Swiss Criminal Code?
https://www.admin.ch/opc/en/classifi...ndex.html#a129

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Endangering life

Any person who unscrupulously places another in immediate life-threatening danger is liable to a custodial sentence not exceeding five years or to a monetary penalty.
the only other place where "unscrupulous" is used in the Code is for murder to differentiate it from manslaughter.

Art. 129 is not about doing something stupid or driving drunk. Is about doing something willingfully very stupid which is just short of attempted murder. There must be criminal intend.

Like:
http://www.servat.unibe.ch/dfr//bger..._352-2011.html

but also for sudden breaking on the Autobahn just "to teach the other a lesson"
http://www.servat.unibe.ch/dfr//bger..._127-2007.html

or willingfully crashing into another car
http://relevancy.bger.ch/php/clir/ht...F133-IV-1%3Ade
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Old 14.01.2016, 12:50
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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The first problem i have with this law is that it includes "put other people lives in danger", which means that one is deportable due to an accident while drunk, or did something really stupid. It may be a crime but expelling someone for doign something without criminal intent is a bit much.
My problem with the same bit is a completely different one: Either you want to throw out criminal foreigners or you don't. But what the SVP wants is to throw out small time criminal foreigners who might rob you on the street, but keep the ones who have money. From Russian oligarchs with convictions for fraud or tax evasion over bankers with all sorts of financial crime track records to anyone who is corrupt, say the executives of international sport organizations.
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Old 12.01.2016, 09:52
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

There might be a spike in naturalization requests. However for the working poor who have sometimes tapped into social help it may be unattainable.
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Old 12.01.2016, 12:35
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

Eh ?

Admittedly all I have to go on is the google translation of the article in French but... if anyone living in CH who does not have CH passport is prosecuted for even a minor infringement.. they're deported 'automatically' .. i.e. a judge/court cant use 'common sense' ???

Where's the list of infringements ?

Do I get sent home if I caught speeding ?
What about (purely theoretical) being a few mg over the limit ?
What if (purely theoretical) my 18 yr old son, with no prior 'convictions', gets into a fight defending himself against a local and the police take the view they're both culpable ... (and nobody and nothing else got hurt) ?
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Old 12.01.2016, 12:58
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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Do I get sent home if I caught speeding ?
No, of course not. But you better pay your Billag invoice.
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Old 12.01.2016, 13:00
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

Does it say how long you get sent back for? I could nick something from Coop on Friday and take the free flight back to London, coming back Sunday.
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Old 12.01.2016, 13:10
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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Does it say how long you get sent back for? I could nick something from Coop on Friday and take the free flight back to London, coming back Sunday.
Are you an illegal immigrant though ?
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Old 12.01.2016, 13:07
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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Eh ?

Admittedly all I have to go on is the google translation of the article in French but... if anyone living in CH who does not have CH passport is prosecuted for even a minor infringement.. they're deported 'automatically' .. i.e. a judge/court cant use 'common sense' ???

Where's the list of infringements ?

Do I get sent home if I caught speeding ?
What about (purely theoretical) being a few mg over the limit ?
What if (purely theoretical) my 18 yr old son, with no prior 'convictions', gets into a fight defending himself against a local and the police take the view they're both culpable ... (and nobody and nothing else got hurt) ?
Though it depends on the traffic zone, speeding is much more above the limit than 5 or 10km/h too fast.

If the referendume is accepted it will take considerable time (years, typically) to get all the fine print in place. If that happesn the details will be in the news.
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Old 12.01.2016, 13:35
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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Eh ?

Admittedly all I have to go on is the google translation of the article in French but... if anyone living in CH who does not have CH passport is prosecuted for even a minor infringement.. they're deported 'automatically' .. i.e. a judge/court cant use 'common sense' ???
That's the core of it: I listened to some interview with a former judge of the highest Swiss court. He believes that this exact bit is unconstitutional.
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Old 28.01.2016, 14:42
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

Repeat offenders will be deported, but first they have to be found guilty .


Admittedly all I have to go on is the google translation of the article in French but... if anyone living in CH who does not have CH passport is prosecuted for even a minor infringement.. they're deported 'automatically' .. i.e. a judge/court cant use 'common sense' ???

Where's the list of infringements ?

Do I get sent home if I caught speeding ?
What about (purely theoretical) being a few mg over the limit ?
What if (purely theoretical) my 18 yr old son, with no prior 'convictions', gets into a fight defending himself against a local and the police take the view they're both culpable ... (and nobody and nothing else got hurt) ?[/QUOTE]
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Old 28.01.2016, 15:49
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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Repeat offenders will be deported, but first they have to be found guilty .


Admittedly all I have to go on is the google translation of the article in French but... if anyone living in CH who does not have CH passport is prosecuted for even a minor infringement.. they're deported 'automatically' .. i.e. a judge/court cant use 'common sense' ???

Where's the list of infringements ?

Do I get sent home if I caught speeding ?
What about (purely theoretical) being a few mg over the limit ?
What if (purely theoretical) my 18 yr old son, with no prior 'convictions', gets into a fight defending himself against a local and the police take the view they're both culpable ... (and nobody and nothing else got hurt) ?
[/QUOTE]

Link is here https://www.admin.ch/ch/d/pore/vi/vis433t.html


Fighting; if there are severe injuries then first offence and you are out; not severe injuries then second offence in 10 years and you are out - seems to be a licence for Swiss citizens to beat up foreigners who dare not defend themselves?


The others seems to depend on if you get a prison sentence and for how long; probably someone has a better answer?
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Old 28.01.2016, 15:59
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

Lots of scaremongering going around by opponents of the initiative that paints Switzerland as becoming some sort of ultra police state. The typical argument is that a simple petty crime will get you deported, according to their interpretation of the initiative text. These are referred to in the initiative text as "Bagatelle", and that is not at all what the initiative is about. It's about more serious crimes and repeat offenders.

Opponents of the initiative are desperate to scare people about it. I wouldn't worry, Switzerland will not become like North Korea anytime soon, even if the initiative passes.
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