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Old 05.02.2016, 15:30
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Re: Feb 28th vote for doubling the Gotthard tunnel

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I rarely drive there but the upgrade would still increase my quality of life. Otherwise I have to listen about traffic jams around Gotthard nearly every single frickin' day.

Not so. The Gotthard route has a free capacity of 92% I read recently. Most days it's no problem. A second tunnel will only increase the amount of traffic using the route and will lead to longer back-ups in other places. Poor old Tessin. Leuenberger told us that we would be limiting the lorries to 700,000 per year. Now we have 1,000,000 plus. So his promise was broken. And now we have a promise to not use the second tunnel as a dual carriageway in the future. Pull the other one. Vote NO.
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  #22  
Old 05.02.2016, 15:43
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Re: Feb 28th vote for doubling the Gotthard tunnel

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I would change this into:
1) spend same amount of money to make train stations in Airolo and Andermatt 10 times bigger
2) Departure of shuttle trains from/to said stations every 30 minutes (ticket costs x CHF)
There is no train between Airolo and Andermatt.

Tom
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  #23  
Old 05.02.2016, 16:05
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Re: Feb 28th vote for doubling the Gotthard tunnel

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Leuenberger told us that we would be limiting the lorries to 700,000 per year. Now we have 1,000,000 plus. So his promise was broken. And now we have a promise to not use the second tunnel as a dual carriageway in the future. Pull the other one. Vote NO.
I guess that's not the only promise of Leuenberger's that was broken.
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  #24  
Old 05.02.2016, 16:35
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Re: Feb 28th vote for doubling the Gotthard tunnel

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Leuenberger told us that we would be limiting the lorries to 700,000 per year. Now we have 1,000,000 plus. So his promise was broken. And now we have a promise to not use the second tunnel as a dual carriageway in the future. Pull the other one. Vote NO.


Let us look what Bundesrat Hürlimann (CVP) said 1980 when the tunnel was opened:
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Dieser Tunnel ist kein Korridor für den Schwerverkehr. In der baulichen Gestaltung ist diese Strasse unter dem Berg nicht für den Transport von Gütern angelegt. Unsere Verkehrspolitik sieht vielmehr heute und morgen den Güterverkehr auf der Schiene.
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This tunel is not a transit route for commercial vehicles. The street under the mountain was not built and designed for the transport of goods. Furthermore, our [the federal councils] political view is to have the goods trafic on the railway.
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  #25  
Old 05.02.2016, 22:52
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Re: Feb 28th vote for doubling the Gotthard tunnel

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How about adding two extra lanes to E43?
TCS traffic news today: San Bernadino closed for heavy vehicles due to snow.

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I guess that's not the only promise of Leuenberger's that was broken.
The UVEK (the responsible department) has been led by Leuthard (CVP) for five years and counting. She managed to steer lots of traffic from the road onto the rails, did she. Instead that party lauches stuff like the current Initiative.
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  #26  
Old 06.02.2016, 09:35
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Re: Feb 28th vote for doubling the Gotthard tunnel

Presuming it will take about 20 years to complete after the usual faffing and objecting, the second tunnel would be totally unnecessary when it opened.

By then we will be in driverless cars that will dramatically increase the capacity of traffic on roads. Vehicles will be able to travel in convoys with 30-40cms separation, so increasing the capacity and safety of the existing tunnel. So I'm voting 'Nien'...
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  #27  
Old 06.02.2016, 10:01
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Re: Feb 28th vote for doubling the Gotthard tunnel

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Vehicles will be able to travel in convoys with 30-40cms separation
Isn't that already the norm here?

Tom
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  #28  
Old 06.02.2016, 18:53
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Re: Feb 28th vote for doubling the Gotthard tunnel

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FTFY!

Tom
No problem, as long as you pay for the tunnel all by yourselves.
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  #29  
Old 06.02.2016, 20:32
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Re: Feb 28th vote for doubling the Gotthard tunnel

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Presuming it will take about 20 years to complete after the usual faffing and objecting, the second tunnel would be totally unnecessary when it opened.
Why would that be? With one tunnel already in place the geo-engineers must have near-perfect knowledge about what awaits them. That allows for much more precision in planning and execution than with the three predecessor tunnels.
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By then we will be in driverless cars that will dramatically increase the capacity of traffic on roads. Vehicles will be able to travel in convoys with 30-40cms separation, so increasing the capacity and safety of the existing tunnel. So I'm voting 'Nien'...
There's no way you can force people to use driverless cars. As a consequence you will have to accomodate both driverless and traditional vehicles.

That means driverless requires a HUGE amount of additional infrastructure, including at least one additional lane for the main traffic absorbers (main roads, highways, etc). There's simply no way to finance such an undertaking in as little as one generation. If however you want to mix the two traffic types to reduce infrastructure costs you automatically throw the main advantage you mentioned out the window.
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  #30  
Old 06.02.2016, 20:40
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Re: Feb 28th vote for doubling the Gotthard tunnel

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Presuming it will take about 20 years to complete after the usual faffing and objecting, the second tunnel would be totally unnecessary when it opened.

By then we will be in driverless cars that will dramatically increase the capacity of traffic on roads. Vehicles will be able to travel in convoys with 30-40cms separation, so increasing the capacity and safety of the existing tunnel. So I'm voting 'Nien'...
We still have a huge percentage of people in europe driving manual gear change cars, how on earth will you go from that to driverless in 20 years. Until people, governments and regulators accept driverless vehicles in mass this is only a dream.

The gotthard tunnel is already an embarrasment that no thought has been put in to at least have it keep up with modern demands. Unless it is expanded it will continue to make Switzerland look like they camt plan for the future.
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  #31  
Old 06.02.2016, 20:54
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Re: Feb 28th vote for doubling the Gotthard tunnel

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We still have a huge percentage of people in europe driving manual gear change cars, how on earth will you go from that to driverless in 20 years. Until people, governments and regulators accept driverless vehicles in mass this is only a dream.
Insurance cost for one thing - cost for machine-driven machines will be almost free. Couple that with the cost of car ownership - there will be no need to own a driverless car - and your standard car's future is all but doomed.
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  #32  
Old 06.02.2016, 21:57
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Re: Feb 28th vote for doubling the Gotthard tunnel

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No problem, as long as you pay for the tunnel all by yourselves.
Actually, I'd prefer that we just close it!

Tom
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  #33  
Old 06.02.2016, 22:33
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Re: Feb 28th vote for doubling the Gotthard tunnel

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Actually, I'd prefer that we just close it!

Tom
Well if self driving cars will be all the rage you wont need the tunnel or most roads in switzerland can just use the railroads instead
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  #34  
Old 07.02.2016, 16:41
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Re: Feb 28th vote for doubling the Gotthard tunnel

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Not so. The Gotthard route has a free capacity of 92% I read recently. Most days it's no problem. A second tunnel will only increase the amount of traffic using the route and will lead to longer back-ups in other places. Poor old Tessin. Leuenberger told us that we would be limiting the lorries to 700,000 per year. Now we have 1,000,000 plus. So his promise was broken. And now we have a promise to not use the second tunnel as a dual carriageway in the future. Pull the other one. Vote NO.
Many here are probably aware of the problems with respect to the Rosengartenstrasse in Zürich city, which is among the roads with the most traffic. Well, by the measure above there's no problem at all as only about 50% of its total capacity is used.

This just shows how utterly useless of a measure it is in this context.

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Insurance cost for one thing - cost for machine-driven machines will be almost free. Couple that with the cost of car ownership - there will be no need to own a driverless car - and your standard car's future is all but doomed.
Have driverless cars finance their infrastructure costs, including the necessary additional space, and all cost advantages go out the window.

Oh, btw, where the heck do you get the space for additional lanes when there's not enough space to even accomodate current traffic types?
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  #35  
Old 07.02.2016, 18:03
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Re: Feb 28th vote for doubling the Gotthard tunnel

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Not so. The Gotthard route has a free capacity of 92% I read recently. Most days it's no problem. A second tunnel will only increase the amount of traffic using the route and will lead to longer back-ups in other places. Poor old Tessin. Leuenberger told us that we would be limiting the lorries to 700,000 per year. Now we have 1,000,000 plus. So his promise was broken. And now we have a promise to not use the second tunnel as a dual carriageway in the future. Pull the other one. Vote NO.

I voted YES and hope that the emergin structure WII be used as a dual carriageway in future
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  #36  
Old 28.02.2016, 12:45
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Re: Feb 28th vote for doubling the Gotthard tunnel

Looks like the second tunnel will be approved by the voters.

http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/february...-vote/41988542
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  #37  
Old 28.02.2016, 12:52
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Re: Feb 28th vote for doubling the Gotthard tunnel

Looks like even a big yes from the south: http://www.sitmap.ti.ch/votazioni/#
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Old 28.02.2016, 13:03
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Re: Feb 28th vote for doubling the Gotthard tunnel

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Looks like the second tunnel will be approved by the voters.

http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/february...-vote/41988542
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Looks like even a big yes from the south: http://www.sitmap.ti.ch/votazioni/#
This is good news!
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  #39  
Old 28.02.2016, 13:08
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Re: Feb 28th vote for doubling the Gotthard tunnel

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This is good news!
Since the polls already reached some agreement on the above mentioned issue with outcome "Yes", it would be reasonable if the rest of the questions in today's poll were voted "No"
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Old 28.02.2016, 13:09
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Re: Feb 28th vote for doubling the Gotthard tunnel

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This is good news!
Wonder what the vote of Uri will be:

No results yet:
http://www.ur.ch/de/aktuelles/abstim...object_id=3385
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