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  #21  
Old 03.03.2016, 14:49
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Re: Foreigners in CH: Excellent graphic on swissinfo.ch

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And a somewhat related graphic. Overseas in this case means outside the country.
Oh wow, I wasn't aware it was so high! 14%? That's a pretty big slice...
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  #22  
Old 03.03.2016, 21:12
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Re: Foreigners in CH: Excellent graphic on swissinfo.ch

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interestingly, only 2% are austrians
Too many Australians.
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  #23  
Old 04.03.2016, 06:00
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Re: Foreigners in CH: Excellent graphic on swissinfo.ch

It's surprising to learn that there are more Italians in Switzerland than Germans. Are the Italians just over the border in Ticino, or are many of them in non-Italian speaking Swiss cities like Zurich or Basel? And why are there so many Italians in Switzerland in the first place?

Before I make an idiot of myself, I'll let somebody here (probably Tom) give the answer. Thanks!
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  #24  
Old 04.03.2016, 10:10
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Re: Foreigners in CH: Excellent graphic on swissinfo.ch

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It's surprising to learn that there are more Italians in Switzerland than Germans. Are the Italians just over the border in Ticino, or are many of them in non-Italian speaking Swiss cities like Zurich or Basel? And why are there so many Italians in Switzerland in the first place?

Before I make an idiot of myself, I'll let somebody here (probably Tom) give the answer. Thanks!
Tom can correct me.

Italy was in really poor economic shape in the 1960's and 70's (especially the south) so able bodied men (mostly in the construction trades) moved abroad to countries (CH, USA, Canada etc.) that were experiencing economic booms (especially in major infrastructure projects) or would accept immigrants .

At the time these "seasonal workers" that came to CH were on permits that allowed them to work in CH 9 months, home 3 months (so they did not set down roots in CH - so no wife, family etc.) and repeat the cycle next year. Over time things were relaxed a bit and family reunification was allowed. Major project such as dams and many of the tunnels were manned mostly with Italian labour.
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  #25  
Old 04.03.2016, 10:55
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Re: Foreigners in CH: Excellent graphic on swissinfo.ch

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Ah, that is one big tough cookie. Are you willing to go through a wall of text to find out why that is so? Here goes:

The city center of Porto - the medieval part - is ridden with problems. Not the kind you probably are thinking about. A lot of those buildings, some of them even churches, belong to private people. Well, they did. Some of those buildings belonged to private people that had run away from Portugal during the dictatorship (a lot of them went to Africa to invest their money "safely" -ah ah) and when the dictatorship fell there was a big mess in the bureaucratic side of things - documents disappeared during the revolution, some corruption made them "change hands", a big social uproar of "there should be no private property" made some being simply taken over Occupy Wallstreet style... A big mess. There are some legal movements even today, 40 years later, to get those buildings to the right people (I know this personally very well). Meanwhile they decay because you can't touch them without knowing who they belong to - therefore who gets to pay the bill. Some workshops which took over the groundfloor are still there, but quite often the top floors are abandoned. (Of course you also have the more banal reason - no monies to fix it, they decay, cycle goes on for decades, no one with sanity and money would want to rent there).

There was also a big internal exodus in the 80's and 90's - people got some freedom and wanted a better place for their children, with gardens and new infrastructures (think Suburbia). Which means the cramped, tiny, old medieval houses in the city center were left to the very poor. Which became a big social problem, with drug and other usually associated problems.

Meanwhile there has been a social movement to avoid the problematic segregation of the poor (and other special specific part of the population that usually ends up in guettos), and a big movement of young blood has been taking over that city center. I was actually shocked last time I visited Portugal - there is a real big movement to finally recover those buildings and it's going really fast (I was even considering taking over a project).

It has become fashionable among architects to recover the water front of Porto (which is world heritage, btw). However, after these architects get their hands on these places, they turn them into fancy wancy apartments for the very foreign rich. Which is creating a whole other trouble (which includes a serious case of corruption with giving european permits to certain non-eu nationals of ill repute).

So meanwhile the city centre is basically less populated visually because it's taken over only during the night by the young people looking for a beer, and during the day is more of a tourism area. Btw, some of these buildings have been turned into great hotels (do please stay in one! it's worth it ).

The regular middle class joe (the great majority of the population) tends to live outside the city and only go there for shopping/schooling. They are concentrated in other areas on their free time.

This is a rather concentrated and simplified version of the whole trouble, but I hope it explains some of it
so who do i have to bribe to get a nice central property to change hands into my name?
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  #26  
Old 04.03.2016, 12:41
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Re: Foreigners in CH: Excellent graphic on swissinfo.ch

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Tom can correct me.

Italy was in really poor economic shape in the 1960's and 70's (especially the south) so able bodied men (mostly in the construction trades) moved abroad to countries (CH, USA, Canada etc.) that were experiencing economic booms (especially in major infrastructure projects) or would accept immigrants .

At the time these "seasonal workers" that came to CH were on permits that allowed them to work in CH 9 months, home 3 months (so they did not set down roots in CH - so no wife, family etc.) and repeat the cycle next year. Over time things were relaxed a bit and family reunification was allowed. Major project such as dams and many of the tunnels were manned mostly with Italian labour.
Also, there's a current ongoing construction project in the new Gothard railway tunnel which---if you're right---is probably being completed with Italian labour.

My speculation was that since northern Italy is more prosperous than the south, some well to do Italians might be moving north to use Switzerland as a tax haven. (That and to annoy Tom.) However, your explanation is more practical. Thanks!
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  #27  
Old 04.03.2016, 16:12
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Re: Foreigners in CH: Excellent graphic on swissinfo.ch

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Major project such as dams and many of the tunnels were manned mostly with Italian labour.
For example, last year was the 50th anniversary of the Mattmark Dam disaster in the Valais, when part of a glacier collapsed on a dam construction site and 88 people were killed. 56 of them were Italian.

http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/50th-ann...story/41627972
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  #28  
Old 05.03.2016, 00:09
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Re: Foreigners in CH: Excellent graphic on swissinfo.ch

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The economy in Portugal is tanking, and has been for some time, with very few jobs. Emigration out of Portugal is a real problem for the country. If you go to Porto, the second largest city, it's like a ghost town in places. Which is a shame, because Portugal is fantastic, as are its people.

Portugal took a lead in this respect already in the 1960ies 70ies
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  #29  
Old 05.03.2016, 00:19
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Re: Foreigners in CH: Excellent graphic on swissinfo.ch

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Ghost town? Ghost town? Seriously? Ghost town is Zurich on a Sunday. Just go to the Norteshopping on a Sunday and you'll find out why the city centre might look like a ghost town...

But yes, the country is fantastic.

(But seriously, the population of the greater area of Porto has actually increased. What happened was a weird exodus from the city center in the 80's-90's, which is now reversing slowly - what was a drug area 20 years ago is a hipster bar corner nowadays. Most of the population is concentrated on "satelite towns" which meanwhile have been merged into the city net due to natural expantion of both).



Portuguese emigration to Switzerland is not new. There was a huge flux of Portuguese emigrating to central european countries (France, Luxembourg, Switzerland, Belgium) between the 50's and the 70's. They were runing away from a repressing dictatorship, and trying to improve their life from a very impoverished rural area (usually from the side glued to Spain). Why those countries? French language, baby, french language...

Portuguese imigrants are also less prone to ask for the Swiss nationality - as seen some time ago in an newspaper article which I unfortunately cannot find - because they are counting on going back to Portugal to retire - hence they never disappear from the "Portuguese Imigrants" slice. Part of that slice is still from people that came here in the 70's and are waiting to cash in.

The emigration to Switzerland picked up the pace in the 2010's again, but it's mostly a whole other type of emigrant - there is a big percentage of university degrees running from the country. Reason is partially the same: economy is in the gutter, specially for fellows with a higher education. Just no more political persecution and with the advantage that Switzerland knows now what Portuguese workers are like and are ok with hiring them (we do have a reputation for being good working site men/good cleaning ladies if nothing else...).

But some things never change: the same way Swiss like to hire their Portuguese to do the jobs they don't want to do (construction and cleaning), Portuguese in their home country give the same jobs to people from the ex-african colonies and ukranians in the very same fashion. The whole world is one big never ending cycle.

Ah, the topic of emigration has so much more behind than a simple plane ticket and work permit... We could go on for hours.


Spain also had a dictatorship and is larger than Portugal and there was no dctatorship in Sicilia Calabria Apulia/Puglia >> the queston remains
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  #30  
Old 05.03.2016, 00:32
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Re: Foreigners in CH: Excellent graphic on swissinfo.ch

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It's surprising to learn that there are more Italians in Switzerland than Germans. Are the Italians just over the border in Ticino, or are many of them in non-Italian speaking Swiss cities like Zurich or Basel? And why are there so many Italians in Switzerland in the first place?

Before I make an idiot of myself, I'll let somebody here (probably Tom) give the answer. Thanks!

Emigration to North-Of-The-Alps Switzerland started in the 1920ies and culminated in the 1950ies and 60ies. Among them was a mason, named Benito who livrd in Schaffhausen, Zürich and Bern, before returning an getting into politics
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  #31  
Old 05.03.2016, 00:52
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Re: Foreigners in CH: Excellent graphic on swissinfo.ch

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Also, there's a current ongoing construction project in the new Gothard railway tunnel which---if you're right---is probably being completed with Italian labour.

My speculation was that since northern Italy is more prosperous than the south, some well to do Italians might be moving north to use Switzerland as a tax haven. (That and to annoy Tom.) However, your explanation is more practical. Thanks!

the number of taxes related emigrants is minimal. Fact is that constructors in the 1950ies sent Recruiting agents to poor Souuthern Italy to find workers. If People in the 70ies and 80ies concluded you were a TSCHINGG you automatically were seen as a BAU-ARBEITER-SOHN (son of a construction worker)


************************************************** ************************************************** ********************




Most of the people of Italian origin have become CH citizens ages ago --- while there in the 1950ies was a Protestant majority there now are more Catholics --- but no majority thanks to the growing nr of Turks and Arabs

Last edited by Wollishofener; 05.03.2016 at 01:04.
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  #32  
Old 06.03.2016, 11:17
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Re: Foreigners in CH: Excellent graphic on swissinfo.ch

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Also, there's a current ongoing construction project in the new Gothard railway tunnel which---if you're right---is probably being completed with Italian labour.

My speculation was that since northern Italy is more prosperous than the south, some well to do Italians might be moving north to use Switzerland as a tax haven. (That and to annoy Tom.) However, your explanation is more practical. Thanks!
Moving one's wealth (partially) north definitely happened, imo it's the main reason Ticino turned into a regional center of finance; they're struggling now without banking secrecy. But you don't need to relocate in order to move your monies to a tax shelter.

The workers needed in the Gotthard Basistunnel and the Ceneri-Tunnel are insignificant, relatively speaking: About 2'200 workes combined for both tunnels vs 300k resident Italians alone.

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Most of the people of Italian origin have become CH citizens ages ago
I don't think this holds against a reality check:
Up until the early '90s, when a revision of the Bürgerrecht brought the right for dual citizenship, naturalization rate seems to have been less than 1% of all foreign residents (chart not updated after 2006). 1999-2003 (older data not readily available) saw about 6k naturalizations of Italians annually, roughly 2% of all italian residents, very much in line with the chart linked above; naturalizations of Italians sank after that, imo as a consequence of the Bilaterals.

However it seems fair to assume that before 1991 naturalization ratio of Italians was also in line with the chart and therefor below 1%. And that could mean that, not least due to higher fertility, the number of resident Italians was roughly stable since perhaps the seventies, which saw the end of the "Hochkonjunktur". The balance was made up for by the Saisonners, which helped keep jobless rate low until the early nineties when the Saisonnierstatut came under increasing pressure, until it was removed in 2002 as a consequence of he Bilaterals.

With these kinds of naturalization rates it seems unlikely that the majority was naturalized.

Last edited by Urs Max; 06.03.2016 at 12:35.
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  #33  
Old 06.03.2016, 15:57
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Re: Foreigners in CH: Excellent graphic on swissinfo.ch

During the so called miracolo italiano (italian miracle) in the 60s northern italy experienced a lot of growth, and millions of people from the south migrated north, and more millions migrated from the south further north to german switzerland and germany.
There were some bergamaschi that moved to the Mendrisiotto to work the land at the beginning of '900 and eventually stayed there, but some of them probably don't even have the italian passport anymore.
In val leventina there was a steel foundry that was opened in the '50s and employed about 1500 italian workers, recruited in sardinia and southern italy, when it started failing many stayed there.
Some numbers: in 1910 there were 200k italians of a total of 550k foreigners without counting seasonal workers, cantons could do whatever they wanted at that time and it was all very liberal. During WW2 there were 100k italians in switzerland (half of the foreigners!). Until 1970 less than 100k italians were naturalized.
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My speculation was that since northern Italy is more prosperous than the south, some well to do Italians might be moving north to use Switzerland as a tax haven. (That and to annoy Tom.) However, your explanation is more practical. Thanks!
Overall ticino is not very significant, it's true that the financial boom in lugano attracted a lot of italians but because they worked there or managed italian clients, not to move their money, but that's over now. Italians prefer to work as frontaliers.
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  #34  
Old 15.03.2016, 20:07
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Re: Foreigners in CH: Excellent graphic on swissinfo.ch

More info but same conclusion, not a clear answer.
http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/ideal-im...rland/34262848
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  #35  
Old 15.03.2016, 21:39
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Re: Foreigners in CH: Excellent graphic on swissinfo.ch

I read with great interest the info that Helm wrote earlier in the thread about Portugal. Thank you!

Country-specific peculiarities notwithstanding, a lot of what she wrote about Portugal can be applied to Italy and Spain (maybe others too, but those are the countries I am familiar with).

The below especially resonates with me:

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...there is a big percentage of university degrees running from the country. Reason is partially the same: economy is in the gutter, specially for fellows with a higher education.
A ton of Italian managers/executives/professors/holders of advanced degrees/researchers are today outside of Italy. I have met quite a few in Switzerland, and increasingly so. If I look at the people who graduated with me from college in Milan, maybe 10% (if hardly) are in Italy. The remainder are scattered all over the globe. In my family we skew the statistics because both my brother and I are abroad! I think it's sad to have this "brain drain".

I have only one Italian friend who made the reverse move, from CH to Italy - entirely for personal reasons because her SO's business was non-exportable to Switzerland and he could not find a job in his field - and it's not even a complete move. I mean, she lives in Italy, but she works in CH (Ticino). She really, really misses Zurich though (sorry Tom! )
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  #36  
Old 23.03.2016, 10:41
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Re: Foreigners in CH: Excellent graphic on swissinfo.ch

Great infographic, though it is now 3 years old. I wonder if immigration picked up the pace from 2014 to 2016. My wife is a German citizen. When she was renewing her passport recently at the German embassy, she had to wait 1 month to get an appointment and then 4 more months to get the actual passport. When she questioned them on the length of the wait, they told her there are more than 0.5 million Germans living in Switzerland and the Embassy is overwhelmed.
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Old 23.03.2016, 10:43
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Re: Foreigners in CH: Excellent graphic on swissinfo.ch

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My wife is a German citizen. When she was renewing her passport recently at the German embassy, she had to wait 1 month to get an appointment and then 4 more months to get the actual passport. When she questioned them on the length of the wait, they told her there are more than 0.5 million Germans living in Switzerland and the Embassy is overwhelmed.
Not surprised, same would happen to her if she lived in Germany
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  #38  
Old 23.03.2016, 15:35
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Re: Foreigners in CH: Excellent graphic on swissinfo.ch

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Great infographic, though it is now 3 years old. I wonder if immigration picked up the pace from 2014 to 2016. My wife is a German citizen. When she was renewing her passport recently at the German embassy, she had to wait 1 month to get an appointment and then 4 more months to get the actual passport. When she questioned them on the length of the wait, they told her there are more than 0.5 million Germans living in Switzerland and the Embassy is overwhelmed.
Well, she was lied to. In dec 2014 298k Germans had permanent residence here.
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  #39  
Old 27.03.2016, 21:00
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Re: Foreigners in CH: Excellent graphic on swissinfo.ch

One way to reduce the number of "foreigners", if that's what you wanted to do, could be to make it easier to become Swiss.
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Old 27.03.2016, 21:27
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Re: Foreigners in CH: Excellent graphic on swissinfo.ch

Many Portuguese here work in agriculture, and have done for decades.
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