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  #21  
Old 04.07.2016, 11:00
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Re: Switzerland the EU and Brexit - No access without free movment

just a side note,
-Almost 80% of exports to the EU countries,
-pays 10x less compared to the cost of the European club membership (ie., the EU)
-more than 75% of that so-called "massive fee" (see above) goes to research funds, the rest goes to border regulation things and some useless bureaucratic stuff, (still a bad trade deal eh? but let's continue)
-doesn't necessarily welcome free movement of people as advertised, ie., regulations and mechanisms as well as the political structure of the country well-monitor the movement of people and hence, referred as selective/filtered free movement (an educated eye would call this an oxymoron, I know),
-(contrary to popular belief) does have a say/representation not only in Brussels but also in most of the advanced economies (in some de facto, shadow, etc). Representation and thus having a say do not necessarily presume having a flag and a Eurocrat sitting in Brussels (besides, it's costly, see above),
-(contrary to popular belief) representation and having a say in Brussels would be funny (ie., voting power and population, among many others),
etc. etc. etc.,
Moreover,
- please check the definition of a treaty and agreement from a dictionary that these terms are not arbitrarily used,
- please think about both the official history and the unofficial one of a country (eg, why neutral? why so strategic? among many many other things)
-https://www.britannica.com/topic/propaganda
etc. etc.

Last edited by Serk; 04.07.2016 at 11:12.
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  #22  
Old 04.07.2016, 11:29
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Re: Switzerland the EU and Brexit - No access without free movment

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How is that? Explain.
Could it be that people don't see that simply because it's not the case?

Since the two, as per your claim, are inherently linked, why does TTIP (Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership) lack a single provision on cross-Atlantic FMP?
TTIP goes nowhere near the same level of trade integration as the common market.

Brexit is commonly viewed as a protest vote by the people left behind by globalisation.

I see the EU stance on free movement of people as a genuine attempt to equalize the effects of globalization within the EU, and eliminate barriers for people who want to work and study. It links trade and people in a way other trade agreements do not, to the benefit of poorer Europeans, by giving them more mobility.

Now if only national governments within the EU could figure out how to do the same within countries.

My recent posts are pro-EU, but I do think it overreaches i.e. the Euro.
If someone figures out a way to unwind that mess, they should get the Nobel peace prize.
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  #23  
Old 04.07.2016, 13:17
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Re: Switzerland the EU and Brexit - No access without free movment

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Brexit is commonly viewed as a protest vote by the people left behind by globalisation.
That statement would seem to me to hit the nail on the head, I had a look at the distribution of the votes for the north of England, the brexiters were almost solidly in towns like Blackburn, Burnley, Bolton etc. towns with a history of benefit culture, high Muslim influx and a general dumbing down of the population, whereas the remainers were to be found in Manchester, Liverpool, Leeds, aka, where the money/intelligence is.
From discussions I find that one of the main reasons for the brexit vote among the "white" population is that they confused a breakaway from the EU with the ability to "send the P"""´s home!" (not my words) seems they blame a certain ethnicity for their own hardships, now where have we seen this attitude before?
I have yet to find a breakdown of the "cultural" background of the remain vrs. brexiter votes. That could be interesting to know.
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  #24  
Old 04.07.2016, 13:42
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Re: Switzerland the EU and Brexit - No access without free movment

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That statement would seem to me to hit the nail on the head, I had a look at the distribution of the votes for the north of England, the brexiters were almost solidly in towns like Blackburn, Burnley, Bolton etc. towns with a history of benefit culture, high Muslim influx and a general dumbing down of the population, whereas the remainers were to be found in Manchester, Liverpool, Leeds, aka, where the money/intelligence is.
From discussions I find that one of the main reasons for the brexit vote among the "white" population is that they confused a breakaway from the EU with the ability to "send the P"""´s home!" (not my words) seems they blame a certain ethnicity for their own hardships, now where have we seen this attitude before?
I have yet to find a breakdown of the "cultural" background of the remain vrs. brexiter votes. That could be interesting to know.
In other words, in case you hadnt heard the rumour, all Brexiteers are racists according to The Intelligent People.
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  #25  
Old 04.07.2016, 14:05
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Re: Switzerland the EU and Brexit - No access without free movment

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In other words, in case you hadnt heard the rumour, all Brexiteers are racists according to The Intelligent People.
Noooo, that is not quite what I said, think about a large part of the brexiters from the crumbling towns of the north, what has racist to do with that? You are rather quick with the R-card don´t you think?
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  #26  
Old 04.07.2016, 14:12
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Re: Switzerland the EU and Brexit - No access without free movment

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Noooo, that is not quite what I said, think about a large part of the brexiters from the crumbling towns of the north, what has racist to do with that? You are rather quick with the R-card don´t you think?
its this bit:

"I find that one of the main reasons for the brexit vote among the "white" population is that they confused a breakaway from the EU with the ability to "send the P"""´s home!" (not my words) seems they blame a certain ethnicity for their own hardships, now where have we seen this attitude before?"
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  #27  
Old 04.07.2016, 15:35
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Re: Switzerland the EU and Brexit - No access without free movment

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Switzerland has bilateral trade agreements indeed BUT

- they have had to agree to free movement of people to do so
- they have to pay massive fees
- they have absolutely no representation no say in Brussels
- they have to adhere to all the rules and regs re products they export to EU

but to go back to your question, China, USA, Russia, etc, can indeed export to UK, but have to pay high tariffs on the goods to be able to do so. There are no tariffs on goods within EU, the whole point.
Without having that big, inefficient EU bureaucracy, China, USA, etc., can sell their products competitively even when paying the tariffs that are far from being that "high".

Europe is a big market but one that doesn't grow anymore. So the UK will be fine by increasing its trade with the emerging markets.
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Old 04.07.2016, 15:41
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Re: Switzerland the EU and Brexit - No access without free movment

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The common market is not about tariffs. That is a vast oversimplification of what it does, and also an explanation of what the supposedly high and mighty undemocratic Brussels bureaucracy is for.

Its about regulatory barriers.

Take milk. Ever wonder why in CH, DE, AT, NL, etc, in all supermarkets, there are certain classes of milk, 0.5% fat, 1.5% fat, 2.5% fat, and so on? Yep, its the EU! Forcing you to buy milk with fat content of 2.5%, as opposed to the 2.7% you wanted.

But also means at the same time, milk producers across 28 countries, if they meet these regulations, can compete with each other all across the common market, and you know, possibly making it cheaper.
Of course, all countries are not equally competitive/different standards of living, hence the agricultural subsidies, which are adjusted continuously.

Imagine the negotiations needed to formulate these guidelines, with consensus required from 28 countries, with varying national interests.

Complex, slow, and certainly too boring for the likes of the Sun and the DM to explain to their readers. Easier to just blame the EU for national failures.

Now repeat this for almost every type of goods that companies would like one set of rules for, to be able to buy, sell and compete across 28 countries and 500 million people. This is what the overwhelming majority of the infamous "EU directives" are for.

You want to drink milk made in China, that conforms to Chinese food safety rules? Sure, let us know how that goes...
As if a lot of regulations were the best way to solve these issues.

Take for example the ridiculous EU proposed rule that some types of Italian cheese should now be made only with powered milk.

Let the consumers decide what they want, not a bunch of alienated bureaucrats in Brussels.
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  #29  
Old 04.07.2016, 15:46
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Re: Switzerland the EU and Brexit - No access without free movment

Seems strange that this is any sort of surprise.

Wasn't it already known and discussed on EF even before the MEI vote? You'd think it would have occured to the politicians a bit earlier.
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  #30  
Old 04.07.2016, 16:05
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Re: Switzerland the EU and Brexit - No access without free movment

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As if a lot of regulations were the best way to solve these issues.

Take for example the ridiculous EU proposed rule that some types of Italian cheese should now be made only with powered milk.

Let the consumers decide what they want, not a bunch of alienated bureaucrats in Brussels.
Trouble finding your tinfoil hat today?

You seem to have trouble distinguishing between rules for product labeling/classification, vs actual consumer choice.

I for one, if I buy something labelled mozzarella cheese, would not like to find out otherwise after I bite into it.
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  #31  
Old 04.07.2016, 16:10
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Re: Switzerland the EU and Brexit - No access without free movment

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its this bit:

"I find that one of the main reasons for the brexit vote among the "white" population is that they confused a breakaway from the EU with the ability to "send the P"""´s home!" (not my words) seems they blame a certain ethnicity for their own hardships, now where have we seen this attitude before?"
I see, I don´t talk to many people from the sub-continent who live in the north of England, they do tend to keep to themselves, so I don´t know the cultural demographics of the vote, this information is lacking. But ask around the "whites" and some of the answers will be "we are leaving so that we can stop immigration" others will tell you that now that the UK has left the EU "we can send the %%$% all back."
Believe me when I say that lost cause arguing with these people that their word view is simplistic at best.
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  #32  
Old 04.07.2016, 16:21
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Re: Switzerland the EU and Brexit - No access without free movment

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I see, I don´t talk to many people from the sub-continent who live in the north of England, they do tend to keep to themselves, so I don´t know the cultural demographics of the vote, this information is lacking. But ask around the "whites" and some of the answers will be "we are leaving so that we can stop immigration" others will tell you that now that the UK has left the EU "we can send the %%$% all back."
Believe me when I say that lost cause arguing with these people that their word view is simplistic at best.
Ok, so in summary because you have (perhaps) spoken to a few white people in the North of England who are clearly racist but no non-white people, then in villages in the north of England many white people are largely racist.

Which is in line with the message the Government has delivered for the last 15 years to anyone who has been concerned about migration, so its consistent at least.
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Old 04.07.2016, 16:31
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Re: Switzerland the EU and Brexit - No access without free movment

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/...te-alain-juppe
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Old 04.07.2016, 16:33
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Re: Switzerland the EU and Brexit - No access without free movment

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Ok, so in summary because you have (perhaps) spoken to a few white people in the North of England who are clearly racist but no non-white people, then in villages in the north of England many white people are largely racist.

Which is in line with the message the Government has delivered for the last 15 years to anyone who has been concerned about migration, so its consistent at least.
Leave the "perhaps" out, but I still do not see where your accusiation of racism comes into the equation.
Do you know the north of England well enough to be able to postulate that a large percentage of the "white" population living there is racist?
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Old 04.07.2016, 17:42
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Re: Switzerland the EU and Brexit - No access without free movment

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Leave the "perhaps" out, but I still do not see where your accusiation of racism comes into the equation.
Do you know the north of England well enough to be able to postulate that a large percentage of the "white" population living there is racist?
No, My view is the reverse. I do not believe there is a a significant porportion of racism throughout England, North or South. My experience of this is based on being brought up in the North of England. Your initial posting on this implies in its conversational nature that the problem of Brexit voters in many towns is that they have racial overtones, something I would say I do not agree with.
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  #36  
Old 04.07.2016, 17:48
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Re: Switzerland the EU and Brexit - No access without free movment

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Let the consumers decide what they want, not a bunch of alienated bureaucrats in Brussels.
Right, because we can trust manufacturers not to falsify their products if given the opportunity to do so
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Old 04.07.2016, 18:56
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Re: Switzerland the EU and Brexit - No access without free movment

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Trouble finding your tinfoil hat today?

You seem to have trouble distinguishing between rules for product labeling/classification, vs actual consumer choice.

I for one, if I buy something labelled mozzarella cheese, would not like to find out otherwise after I bite into it.
Well, guess what, even with all this regulation you are probably buying olive oil bottled in Italy, with an Italian brand, that is in fact a mixture of Greek, Spanish, and Turkish olive oil...

Why you have to spend money with bureaucrats drafting rules on subjects that they don't have a clue about?

And for your information, mozzarella is a mushy white cheese in Italy, whereas in some other countries it can be harder and yellow. So, are we going to forbid the other one just because it doesn't follow the original Italian recipe??? If the labeling is stating the ingredients and where it's made, what's the problem? Why you need to pay people to take care of you if you can by your own decide which mozzarella you like the most?
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Old 04.07.2016, 18:58
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Re: Switzerland the EU and Brexit - No access without free movment

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Right, because we can trust manufacturers not to falsify their products if given the opportunity to do so
Simple, if a manufacturer falsify their products, don't but it, sue them, buy from other manufacturer, make all your friends know that that product sucks, denounce it online, etc..
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  #39  
Old 04.07.2016, 19:00
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Re: Switzerland the EU and Brexit - No access without free movment

Do you feel the same about electrical goods that can electrocute you or your child, toxic products or clothes that can be easily set alight, etc?
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Old 04.07.2016, 19:11
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Re: Switzerland the EU and Brexit - No access without free movment

Some months ago, I had a good guffaw at this guy trying to burn his EU flag, which, of course, was made of anti-inflammable material due to safety regulations of the EU.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TQRg7wH_FC0

Well, he got what he wanted. In the coming years he'll be able to set fire to the foam in his sofa, the paint on his car, his own clothes, and any other flags he doesn't like.
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