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Old 03.07.2016, 13:14
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Switzerland the EU and Brexit - No access without free movment

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...ement-citizens

I must confess, even though I'm pretty much in the Remain camp, I dont understand this.

'No access to the single market without free movement of people' doesn't make sense because.. China, USA, Russia etc. etc. can all sell stuff to Germans and French without opening their borders to EU citizens. I guess they just trade at slightly unfavourable positions. So.. why cant Switzerland and the UK simply be treated the same ?

I await enlightenment.. hopefully without soap box ranting.
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Old 03.07.2016, 13:35
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Re: Switzerland the EU and Brexit - No access without free movment

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doesn't make sense because.. China, USA, Russia etc. etc. can all sell stuff to Germans and French without opening their borders to EU citizens.
But they are not in the Free Market are they? They have some sort of trade deal... which the UK and Switzerland would have to negotiate if they don't want freedom of movement.
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Old 03.07.2016, 13:41
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Re: Switzerland the EU and Brexit - No access without free movment

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...So.. why cant Switzerland and the UK simply be treated the same ?...
Of course, they can. But that means, among others, that they'd have to offer more competitive price, since without the Single Market access the prices of their goods/services would be more expensive.
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Old 03.07.2016, 14:57
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Re: Switzerland the EU and Brexit - No access without free movment

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'No access to the single market without free movement of people' doesn't make sense because.. China, USA, Russia etc. etc. can all sell stuff to Germans and French without opening their borders to EU citizens. I guess they just trade at slightly unfavourable positions. So.. why cant Switzerland and the UK simply be treated the same ?
Two things come to mind:

- Sale of financial products would be an issue without access to the single market, referred to as passporting.

- Ability to quote for Gov/EU contracts or have the ability for your products to be included in such quotes by EU companies... (sorry can't remember a link for this one, just remember it being mentioned as one of the reasons at the time)

So yes you could go with WTO access, but two major features would be excluded.
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Old 03.07.2016, 15:41
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Re: Switzerland the EU and Brexit - No access without free movment

Aside from the technicalities, when the eu ideologists/administrators talk about these things they talk about the Four Freedoms like they are sacred. You can't have only 3 of them, it's all or nothing, no negotiation allowed (this is why I say it's an ideological stance).
The USA, china, etc. are not in europe, so with them it's a normal negotiation process.
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Old 03.07.2016, 15:45
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Re: Switzerland the EU and Brexit - No access without free movment

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https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...ement-citizens
. So.. why cant Switzerland and the UK simply be treated the same ?.
Switzerland has bilateral trade agreements indeed BUT

- they have had to agree to free movement of people to do so
- they have to pay massive fees
- they have absolutely no representation no say in Brussels
- they have to adhere to all the rules and regs re products they export to EU

but to go back to your question, China, USA, Russia, etc, can indeed export to UK, but have to pay high tariffs on the goods to be able to do so. There are no tariffs on goods within EU, the whole point.

Last edited by Odile; 03.07.2016 at 16:27.
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Old 03.07.2016, 17:18
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Re: Switzerland the EU and Brexit - No access without free movment

What is it with the suicidal referenda in the last few years? Has every rich, first-world, have-it-all country gone mad?
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Old 03.07.2016, 17:29
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Re: Switzerland the EU and Brexit - No access without free movment

So it boils down to tarifs ?

If you're not in the EU and you want to export something to an EU nation you have to pay the EU to let the goods in ?

Presumably, if you're not in the EU and and EU country wants to export something to you, then you can also impose a tarif.

Hence 'bilateral agreements' means .. for some goods.. no mutual tarifs ?

What's all that got to do with 'free movement of people'.. are the EU really saying to Switzerland 'to sell anything into the EU you have to pay a fee .. and agree to allow any EU national to settle in Switzerland ?'
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Old 03.07.2016, 18:51
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Re: Switzerland the EU and Brexit - No access without free movment

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What's all that got to do with 'free movement of people'.. are the EU really saying to Switzerland 'to sell anything into the EU you have to pay a fee .. and agree to allow any EU national to settle in Switzerland ?'
The principle behind free movement of people in the EU is that if there's a shortage in one area and an oversupply in another then people should be able to migrate, economically it's just as important as the other 3 freedoms of movement: capital, goods, and services.

It's up to Switzerland if it wishes to participate in the single market, but the principles of it are well known. Although Brexit won't make the Swiss negociations easier the EU has always been consistent in its position.
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Old 03.07.2016, 20:20
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Re: Switzerland the EU and Brexit - No access without free movment

As posted by Porsch on the Brexit thread (thanks):


https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...ement-citizens
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Old 03.07.2016, 20:32
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Re: Switzerland the EU and Brexit - No access without free movment

How come no one is complaining about the Guardian using "Swiss" instead of Switzerland in the headline?
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Old 03.07.2016, 20:38
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Re: Switzerland the EU and Brexit - No access without free movment

Perhaps because in that sentence it is correct (Swiss = Swiss people)
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Old 03.07.2016, 20:47
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Re: Switzerland the EU and Brexit - No access without free movment

The common market is not about tariffs. That is a vast oversimplification of what it does, and also an explanation of what the supposedly high and mighty undemocratic Brussels bureaucracy is for.

Its about regulatory barriers.

Take milk. Ever wonder why in CH, DE, AT, NL, etc, in all supermarkets, there are certain classes of milk, 0.5% fat, 1.5% fat, 2.5% fat, and so on? Yep, its the EU! Forcing you to buy milk with fat content of 2.5%, as opposed to the 2.7% you wanted.

But also means at the same time, milk producers across 28 countries, if they meet these regulations, can compete with each other all across the common market, and you know, possibly making it cheaper.
Of course, all countries are not equally competitive/different standards of living, hence the agricultural subsidies, which are adjusted continuously.

Imagine the negotiations needed to formulate these guidelines, with consensus required from 28 countries, with varying national interests.

Complex, slow, and certainly too boring for the likes of the Sun and the DM to explain to their readers. Easier to just blame the EU for national failures.

Now repeat this for almost every type of goods that companies would like one set of rules for, to be able to buy, sell and compete across 28 countries and 500 million people. This is what the overwhelming majority of the infamous "EU directives" are for.

You want to drink milk made in China, that conforms to Chinese food safety rules? Sure, let us know how that goes...
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Old 03.07.2016, 22:57
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Re: Switzerland the EU and Brexit - No access without free movment

But sometimes it is an anticompetitive system: so Polish trucking companies, thanks to lower cost, and despite only limited to take load "to" and "back" are outcompeting the German and French ones. So both corresponding countries enacted "minimum wage" that was also applied to foreign truck drivers while passing through their countries. Germany's attempt was perhaps neutralized, but French "Macron loi" actually is implemented in Russia-like style - just days before it comes in force there were not yet any forms available that foreign trucking companies have to submit. I've heard similar stories in agriculture, where the level of subsidies is simply a political game played to the benefit of the strongest, about nonsensical food security interpretations forced in the new EU countries to give a handicap to the older ones; and don't get me started on the subsidies for development, which are instilling corruption all over the place, and are source of constant abuse and profits for these in the known.
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Old 04.07.2016, 07:28
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Re: Switzerland the EU and Brexit - No access without free movment

So the inevitable fallout from the Brexit numbnuts has now reached Switzerland, I posted this up yesterday morning on the other thread, not sure anybody clicked the link. There are a few members on this Forum who Brexited, I blame them for everything, yes, you know who you are...
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Old 04.07.2016, 08:31
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Re: Switzerland the EU and Brexit - No access without free movment

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What is it with the suicidal referenda in the last few years? Has every rich, first-world, have-it-all country gone mad?
In a sense, yes, in that political and economic principles have been coming more and more to the fore and being implemented by successive governments that many ordinary voters don't understand and feel are against their own best interests.

This thread is a case in point, as, to many people, it doesn't seem obvious that free trade and free movement of peoples are inherently linked, so they see government/beurocracy implementing the latter, which they don't agree with, in order to get the former, which they do. Over time this increases dissatisfaction with government, or politics in general, which shows itself in these lash-back types of votes, whose primary motivation, for some people at least , is as a means of making a visible statement that they feel unable to achieve through the ordinary election process.
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Old 04.07.2016, 09:06
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Re: Switzerland the EU and Brexit - No access without free movment

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You want to drink milk made in China, that conforms to Chinese food safety rules? Sure, let us know how that goes...
I wanted to correct your "made in China" to "produced in China". Then I realised that "made in China" is probably correct in this instance
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Old 04.07.2016, 09:58
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Re: Switzerland the EU and Brexit - No access without free movment

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This thread is a case in point, as, to many people, it doesn't seem obvious that free trade and free movement of peoples are inherently linked
How is that? Explain.
Could it be that people don't see that simply because it's not the case?

Since the two, as per your claim, are inherently linked, why does TTIP (Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership) lack a single provision on cross-Atlantic FMP?
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Old 04.07.2016, 10:24
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Re: Switzerland the EU and Brexit - No access without free movment

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Since the two, as per your claim, are inherently linked, why does TTIP (Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership) lack a single provision on cross-Atlantic FMP?
The title of this thread should make it clear we're not talking about TTIP.
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Old 04.07.2016, 10:51
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Re: Switzerland the EU and Brexit - No access without free movment

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This thread is a case in point, as, to many people, it doesn't seem obvious that free trade and free movement of peoples are inherently linked
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How is that? Explain.
Could it be that people don't see that simply because it's not the case?

Since the two, as per your claim, are inherently linked, why does TTIP (Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership) lack a single provision on cross-Atlantic FMP?
If you read what I wrote slightly more carefully you'll see I'm making no such claim, simply stating that many people, like you, don't think/see/believe that it is.
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