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  #81  
Old 07.01.2017, 18:58
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Re: Not allowed entry without a resident's permit?

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Nobody said that you don't have a right to be in the Schengen area, but that right does not extend to the point where you are not required to justify your right to be there. Nor do you have an absolute right to be here by the way.

If you are traveling for business or holidays, then one assume you'd be able to show hotel reservations, return tickets and so on....

If you are coming here to seek work one would expect that you'd have arrangements to stay somewhere, copies of resume, job leads and so on.

And of course if you are resident, you'd be expected to be able to produce a residents permit.

So if you rock up telling them you want to inter because you are a resident, but have not got a residence permit to prove it, then don't be surprised if they take a special interest in you.



Yes of course you can be refused, you can even be required to leave if you fail to comply with the rules of FMOP as well. Just because the UK did not bother to apply the rules as intended does not mean other states do the same.



Yes but those 90% are not claiming their reason for come here is because the reside her now are they?

And by the way your right to be here as an EU citizen under FMOP and your right to be here under the Schengen agreement is not one and the same thing, despite what you seem to think.

Why tie yourself in knots over this - I really don't understand why some people on here are so intent on making things more complex than the Swiss themselves

If we look back at the original argument we were talking about people on here asserting it was illegal for a resident to enter Switzerland without a flimsy bit of easily forged paper and that doing so could lead to refusal of entry and the consequences of that

We also had the assertion that anyone doing so could be banned from entering the country for 3 months

Remember also there is the situation that those we are talking about have the legal right of residency.

I have seen no evidence, despite the certainty in the proclamations, that any penalty would be linked to not having the permit on entry - apart from anecdotal evidence

My position is that arriving at the border without my residence permit would lead to nothing more than a very unlikely inconvenience of having to prove my right of residence....which lies within their computer system.

It may be that it is more convenient to have the permit at all times but the law does not mandate it.

Can you show me where Swiss Law legally mandates an EU passport holder to carry their permit with them when entering the country.......?
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  #82  
Old 07.01.2017, 19:08
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Re: Not allowed entry without a resident's permit?

If some people on here want to carry their permits around with them all the time then great....it is the most pain free way of living

Some of us do not want to do that for various reasons

Those in the first category seem intent to tell us that what we are doing is illegal and that the consequences could be dire......stopped from coming into my legal place of residence for 3 months, being refused entry at the border etc etc as well as a whole raft of personal insults. Most of it based on interpretation and anecdote. Evidence is sparse to non-existent though

Why does it matter to you guys so much?

I have had loads of contact with Swiss officialdom over the years and have found the vast majority to be sensible, pragmatic, friendly and helpful.

Why do you have such a poor view of the Swiss? I live in the Romandie and have nothing bad to say about them. I am confident that as a legal resident of Switzerland they would let me into their country with minimal fuss and some advice on how to avoid any problems - if this highly unlikely event came to pass

Obviously it is different if the law is being broken - if that is the case though I think your attempts at showing that have been a bit weak
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  #83  
Old 07.01.2017, 20:04
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Re: Not allowed entry without a resident's permit?

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I have the right to be in the Schengen area at point of entry due to me being a UK/EU citizen
For a limited period of time.

Tom
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  #84  
Old 07.01.2017, 20:10
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Re: Not allowed entry without a resident's permit?

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For a limited period of time.

Tom

Indeed....which is why I have obtained a C Permit to allow me to live and work here

That is most easily demonstrated by having the permit...but the paper permit itself does not give me the right to reside.....

If the authorities need to confirm the right to reside at the border, the most effective and robust way is to check on their computer system (which I am sure they will have access to) - if it is a policeman then it will be to look at my permit which is safely at home in most instances

There is no mandated requirement to carry it at all times....just may make some people's life easier

After 10 years I have never had to show anyone my permit in a check....
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  #85  
Old 07.01.2017, 20:42
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Re: Not allowed entry without a resident's permit?

There IS hope, in Vaud they are issuing credit card size biometric permis Cs. It also has a machine readable scan band, just like a passport. I've had mine since Feb 2014. Apparently this is currently for non-EU residents but they will be rolling it out to all permis C holders in the fullness of time.

Back on topic. Boarder guards have a tremendous amount of power. If they don't like your looks, you are back on the plane which brought you here - even if the airline has to bump a paying passenger on that flight. Perhaps you can appeal but not then and there.

The law requires you to carry your permis at all times, but you aren't technically in Switzerland until you pass border control so you haven't (yet) broken the law. But you will be, and they know that you will be. Catch 22.

If I arrived in (Schengen) Frankfurt and say I'm a Swiss resident they will want proof. They are happy with my Vaud permit, although it is in French only. So why the difference if I arrive in Geneva, Bern, Basel, Zurich or Lugano? Perhaps they can find me in their data base, but perhaps they have a big queue and don't want to waste time if I present it with my passport. A quick scan of my permis and I'm in.

In places like Manchester it is not border control that are asking for your residence permit. It is the airline, which is subject to large fines if their board an inadmissible passenger - I think the Swiss fine is CHF5,000 per passenger. So the airline wants to avoid a big fine and the hassle it causes them if you get turned away.

Carry your permit when you are travelling, buy a bigger wallet if necessary. You will never be wrong if you have it.
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  #86  
Old 07.01.2017, 20:55
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Re: Not allowed entry without a resident's permit?

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There IS hope, in Vaud they are issuing credit card size biometric permis Cs. It also has a machine readable scan band, just like a passport. I've had mine since Feb 2014. Apparently this is currently for non-EU residents but they will be rolling it out to all permis C holders in the fullness of time.

Back on topic. Boarder guards have a tremendous amount of power. If they don't like your looks, you are back on the plane which brought you here - even if the airline has to bump a paying passenger on that flight. Perhaps you can appeal but not then and there.

The law requires you to carry your permis at all times, but you aren't technically in Switzerland until you pass border control so you haven't (yet) broken the law. But you will be, and they know that you will be. Catch 22.

If I arrived in (Schengen) Frankfurt and say I'm a Swiss resident they will want proof. They are happy with my Vaud permit, although it is in French only. So why the difference if I arrive in Geneva, Bern, Basel, Zurich or Lugano? Perhaps they can find me in their data base, but perhaps they have a big queue and don't want to waste time if I present it with my passport. A quick scan of my permis and I'm in.

In places like Manchester it is not border control that are asking for your residence permit. It is the airline, which is subject to large fines if their board an inadmissible passenger - I think the Swiss fine is CHF5,000 per passenger. So the airline wants to avoid a big fine and the hassle it causes them if you get turned away.

Carry your permit when you are travelling, buy a bigger wallet if necessary. You will never be wrong if you have it.

Thanks for this but not quite sure on some of the things you have covered

Firstly, it is not the law to carry the permit at all times, post 7 shows what it says and that you have time to produce it.

You are right to say border guards have a lot of power but the decision to send someone back on a plane, especially when they are a legal Swiss resident and the only thing they are missing is a permit would require sufficient reason, and justifiable cause to be legal. Especially if the only justification was not having something that is not compulsory to carry

Nowhere does it say that for entry a resident permit is required alongside a passport - if you can show me where it does then I will be the first to admit it. This is explicit for non-EU so I would guess that it would be at least referred to if it was the case

Are you sure the UK authorities would ask for a resident permit to allow travel to Switzerland seeing it is visa free? That is news to me. Countless flights from the Uk and never been mentioned...

I also know that only 10-20% of time is my passport scanned at Geneva and so, I would also assume, that if proof of residence was so important then they would keep a closer eye on how often people are coming in and out

The Swiss have never struck me as a country that acts in a half-arsed manner. If residency is important then I would ask why they do not scan all passports and how, in almost 500 entries, I have never been asked to show my permit

I still think there are a lot of assumptions being made that are not backed up legally
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  #87  
Old 07.01.2017, 21:08
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Re: Not allowed entry without a resident's permit?

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You are right to say border guards have a lot of power but the decision to send someone back on a plane, especially when they are a legal Swiss resident and the only thing they are missing is a permit would require sufficient reason, and justifiable cause to be legal. Especially if the only justification was not having something that is not compulsory to carry

Nowhere does it say that for entry a resident permit is required alongside a passport - if you can show me where it does then I will be the first to admit it. This is explicit for non-EU so I would guess that it would be at least referred to if it was the case.
It is reffered in the law:
Art. 5 Foreign Nationals Act
Quote:
1 Foreign nationals who wish to enter Switzerland:

a. must have a recognised identity document for crossing the border and a visa, if required;
[...]
If a non-EU/EFTA persons visa D expired the permit act as an entry legitimation. Or is the visa D renewed with the permit ???
You may also look into the Schengen Borders Code: http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-conte...LEX:32006R0562

But now we are mixing things up. EU and non-EU persons are not treated the same and have different rights regarding entry into Switzerlandl.

Last edited by aSwissInTheUS; 07.01.2017 at 21:23.
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  #88  
Old 07.01.2017, 21:16
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Re: Not allowed entry without a resident's permit?

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It is reffered in the law:
Art. 5 Foreign Nationals Act


If a non-EU/EFTA persons visa D expired the permit act as an entry legitimation. Or is the visa D renewed with the permit ???
The wording is not clear....EU have no need of a visa in principle.....does a resident permit equate a visa in this case?

I suppose it could but then again it may not
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  #89  
Old 07.01.2017, 21:24
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Re: Not allowed entry without a resident's permit?

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The wording is not clear....EU have no need of a visa in principle.....does a resident permit equate a visa in this case?

I suppose it could but then again it may not
Read the Schengen Borders Code. See link in (edited) post above.
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Old 07.01.2017, 21:32
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Re: Not allowed entry without a resident's permit?

Why do you think Swiss law applies? It doesn't as you have not yet entered Switzerland.

And I didn't say the UK authorities, there are no exit controls from the UK.
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  #91  
Old 07.01.2017, 21:35
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Re: Not allowed entry without a resident's permit?

Still ambiguous

I have a valid identity document

I have no need of a visa (the document makes a distinction between that and a permit in the way I read it)

I have a permit to reside and work in Switzerland

Nowhere does it say you have to produce a permit to enter the country

and finally, does this apply in totality to EU citizens as there is a big caveat in Article 2.2 (link didn't work to have a closer look)? May explain why I have never been asked...
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  #92  
Old 07.01.2017, 21:37
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Re: Not allowed entry without a resident's permit?

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Why do you think Swiss law applies? It doesn't as you have not yet entered Switzerland.

And I didn't say the UK authorities, there are no exit controls from the UK.
Sorry I misread about the UK part...thought you said UK authorities asked.

Point still stands though....never been asked for resident permit by airline...are you non-EU by any chance.....makes a massive difference?
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  #93  
Old 07.01.2017, 21:48
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Re: Not allowed entry without a resident's permit?

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Sorry I misread about the UK part...thought you said UK authorities asked.

Point still stands though....never been asked for resident permit by airline...are you non-EU by any chance.....makes a massive difference?
Listen well to his answer, you're soon non EU too
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Old 07.01.2017, 21:49
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Re: Not allowed entry without a resident's permit?

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If some people on here want to carry their permits around with them all the time then great....it is the most pain free way of living

Some of us do not want to do that for various reasons
Actually, it's a legal requirement to have some kind of verifiable ID on you at all times when you are out and about in Switzerland.

I guess it doesn't have to be your permit but, to be honest, I'd rather lose that than my passport, given the eye-watering cost of a replacement British passport these days.
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Old 07.01.2017, 21:50
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Re: Not allowed entry without a resident's permit?

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And I didn't say the UK authorities, there are no exit controls from the UK.
You are a non-Eu national travelling from UK to Switzerland?
You will find the answer why the airline wants to see your permit in Art. 92 and Art. 122a of Foreign Nationals Act
and
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  #96  
Old 07.01.2017, 21:52
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Re: Not allowed entry without a resident's permit?

Found the French version of the EU rules....It says nothing about resident permit, and explicitly says that visa, or equivalent, will not be applied. All is needed to enter is a valid passport

(1) Les parties contractantes admettent sur leur territoire les ressortissants des autres parties contractantes, les membres de leur famille au sens de l'art. 3 de la présente annexe ainsi que les travailleurs détachés au sens de l'art. 17 de la présente annexe sur simple présentation d'une carte d'identité ou d'un passeport en cours de validité.

Aucun visa d'entrée ni obligation équivalente ne peut être imposé, sauf aux membres de la famille et aux travailleurs détachés au sens de l'art. 17 de la présente annexe, qui ne possèdent pas la nationalité d'une partie contractante. La partie contractante concernée accorde à ces personnes toutes facilités pour obtenir les visas qui leur seraient nécessaires.

(2) Les parties contractantes reconnaissent aux ressortissants des parties contractantes, aux membres de leur famille au sens de l'art. 3 de la présente annexe, ainsi qu'aux travailleurs détachés au sens de l'art. 17 de la présente annexe, le droit de quitter leur territoire sur simple présentation d'une carte d'identité ou d'un passeport en cours de validité. Les parties contractantes ne peuvent imposer aux ressortissants des autres parties contractantes aucun visa de sortie ni obligation équivalente.

Les parties contractantes délivrent ou renouvellent à leurs ressortissants, conformément à leur législation, une carte d'identité ou un passeport précisant notamment leur nationalité.

Le passeport doit être valable au moins pour toutes les parties contractantes et pour les pays en transit direct entre ceux-ci. Lorsque le passeport est le seul document valable pour sortir du pays, la durée de sa validité ne peut être inférieure à cinq ans.
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Old 07.01.2017, 21:54
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Re: Not allowed entry without a resident's permit?

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Actually, it's a legal requirement to have some kind of verifiable ID on you at all times when you are out and about in Switzerland.

I guess it doesn't have to be your permit but, to be honest, I'd rather lose that than my passport, given the eye-watering cost of a replacement British passport these days.
My commune say a driving licence is acceptable but that is a grey zone and it can be dependant on the person requesting it.

I carry a photocopy of permit at all times but understand what you are saying

If it was a choice then like you it would be the permit
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Old 07.01.2017, 21:55
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Re: Not allowed entry without a resident's permit?

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Actually, it's a legal requirement to have some kind of verifiable ID on you at all times when you are out and about in Switzerland.
The U.K. is now in charge of Swiss law Holly molly, the GBies are giving me the jeebies.

Except when crossing the border there is no legal requirement to carry an ID: You must only posses one and be able to show it in good time. But it is advisable to carry some sort of ID as most if not every's cantons police law allows to detain a person as long as the identity is not clear or in doubt.
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Old 07.01.2017, 21:55
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Re: Not allowed entry without a resident's permit?

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Listen well to his answer, you're soon non EU too
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Old 07.01.2017, 21:59
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Re: Not allowed entry without a resident's permit?

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Found the French version of the EU rules....It says nothing about resident permit, and explicitly says that visa, or equivalent, will not be applied. All is needed to enter is a valid passport

[Some French text I do not understand, and unclear where it is from as no link or citation is given]
Ok. No not only this:

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But now we are mixing things up. EU and non-EU persons are not treated the same and have different rights regarding entry into Switzerland.
But I am confused. Please for the sake of simplicity. State what you are EU or non-EU and please correctly cite, reference or link to the source of your text.
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