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  #21  
Old 12.01.2017, 20:57
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Re: Vote on allowing easier citizenship for third generation

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A reasonable assumption. But if it had any influence at all it should increase the terzo's motivation and obviate a potential need to lower the bars.
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I have no opinion yet. I just don't see a reason to be for the proposition.
Hmmm, it took them 8 years in parliament and now they're calling us to vote for a thing that matters to 24'656 people (plus future cases, which will probably be even less).
It seems a no brainer to me .... on the other hand you got a point: Shouldn't be difficult for a terzo to just get the passport the usual way.

I don't really see a reason to be against the proposition either though?
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  #22  
Old 12.01.2017, 23:34
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Re: Vote on allowing easier citizenship for third generation

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I don't really see a reason to be against the proposition either though?
Spot on. I see it very much as a non-issue, not worth creating a fuss about let alone a federal vote. The opportunity is there already, if it's not worth seizing than that's just that. All the proposition does is serve "Partikularinteressen", interests of a very small group; the vast majority is left standing in the rain.

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If it wasn't for the SVP, I may not have felt the need to apply for facilitated naturalisation last April. So thanks SVP

As a new Swiss citizen I'm again thankful that the SVP will make my first voting choice such an easy one
If I may ask, what are your reasons for a yes? It's of course your decision and Ok if it's just an anti-SVP reflex, but perhaps there's more?
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  #23  
Old 13.01.2017, 00:55
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Re: Vote on allowing easier citizenship for third generation

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If I may ask, what are your reasons for a yes? It's of course your decision and Ok if it's just an anti-SVP reflex, but perhaps there's more?
Honestly it's mostly an anti-SVP reflex. Especially as the SVP poster in the original post I find dishonest (the issue has almost entirely nothing to do with Muslims and there is still control on naturalisation).

But I also think that if a family is still here into their 3rd generation they are essentially Swiss. If everything is correct in the link that sam ali posted earlier then I think there is still plenty of control, but it should be lessened. I can't see any drawbacks to welcoming mostly terzo Italians and Portuguese and Spanish. Especially as their grandparents where, if what I've been told is correct, brought in to do the jobs the Swiss no longer wanted to do. After 3 generations they've probably earned their right to citizenship.

However, over the next month I will try to gather more info on the details of "easy naturalisation". I haven't completely decided, and I'd never cast a vote purely based on spite.
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  #24  
Old 13.01.2017, 09:44
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Re: Vote on allowing easier citizenship for third generation

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I found the AUSLANDER RAUS campaign more offensive.
There never was such a campaign. The campaign was about criminal foreigners.

I will vote yes for this initiative, even though I don't think this will change much as only 25'000 people will be affected.
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  #25  
Old 13.01.2017, 09:50
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Re: Vote on allowing easier citizenship for third generation

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I found the AUSLANDER RAUS campaign more offensive.
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Old 13.01.2017, 09:56
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Re: Vote on allowing easier citizenship for third generation

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If you're a third generation immigrant who is unable to obtain a passport you should probably be asking your parents and grandparents why they still haven't bothered to integrate enough to be eligible for citizenship!
It doesn't matter what the parents or grandparents did in regards to integration, every case is (thankfully) judged individually. If one is integrated, and there are very big chances a "terzo" is integrated, then gaining the citizenship is a formality.
What do you propose, judging someone based on the deeds of their parents?
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  #27  
Old 13.01.2017, 11:02
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Re: Vote on allowing easier citizenship for third generation

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on the other hand you got a point: Shouldn't be difficult for a terzo to just get the passport the usual way.
Will the new changes avoid the need to be vetted and approved by the commune?
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  #28  
Old 13.01.2017, 11:07
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Re: Vote on allowing easier citizenship for third generation

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If I may ask, what are your reasons for a yes? It's of course your decision and Ok if it's just an anti-SVP reflex, but perhaps there's more?
Default voting position. See what the SVP support and vote the other way.
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  #29  
Old 13.01.2017, 11:08
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Re: Vote on allowing easier citizenship for third generation

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Will the new changes avoid the need to be vetted and approved by the commune?
Yes, becomes a purely federal decision (although the commune will still carry out checks on behalf of the Federation eg police check, interview)

It's exactly the same Erleichterte Einbürgerung process that foreign spouses of Swiss nationals can follow. Main benefit for Terzos is that it's faster and cheaper.
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  #30  
Old 13.01.2017, 11:38
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Re: Vote on allowing easier citizenship for third generation

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Default voting position. See what the SVP support and vote the other way.
Nope, sorry, that would be dumb. No better than just following a party's lead.
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  #31  
Old 13.01.2017, 11:50
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Re: Vote on allowing easier citizenship for third generation

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I've seen a few.
The vote is about third generation immigrants. Pretty much all of them are Italian, a few already Spanish and Portuguese. Not even the Turkish in the 70s, the first Muslim immigrants, are in the 3rd generation yet. Let alone any of the Arabs, Africans or other refugees.


The point is not wether driving in a Niqab (that's not a Burka on the poster...) is dangerous - I find it far more dangerous that Muslims are the scapegoats to prevent guys called Luca to finally completely integrate after their parents were already born here.


There simply is a bottom drawer of people who have nothing else to be proud of than the color of their passport... and it is a shame to instrumentalize them in the way the SVP does. It's totally fine to discuss the topic and it's even better to finally have a vote about it. But the tone and ads for the vote are completely off the chart.
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  #32  
Old 13.01.2017, 12:48
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Re: Vote on allowing easier citizenship for third generation

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The point is not wether driving in a Niqab (that's not a Burka on the poster...) is dangerous - I find it far more dangerous that Muslims are the scapegoats to prevent guys called Luca to finally completely integrate after their parents were already born here.
This is just as dishonest as the poster: Nobody keeps Luca from naturalising.

The single outside factor that may actually keep him is the need for residency in a given Kanton and Gemeinde for a minimum duration, but that problem is to be solved in a different way if that were the issue.
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  #33  
Old 13.01.2017, 12:53
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Re: Vote on allowing easier citizenship for third generation

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This is just as dishonest as the poster: Nobody keeps Luca from naturalising.

The single outside factor that may actually keep him is the need for residency in a given Kanton and Gemeinde for a minimum duration, but that problem is to be solved in a different way if that were the issue.
I guess I'm supposed to know who Luca is?
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  #34  
Old 13.01.2017, 12:58
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Re: Vote on allowing easier citizenship for third generation

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I guess I'm supposed to know who Luca is?
No, but it's fairly unlikely he will be wearing a burka.
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  #35  
Old 13.01.2017, 13:00
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Re: Vote on allowing easier citizenship for third generation

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This is just as dishonest as the poster: Nobody keeps Luca from naturalising.
No it isn't. The entire point of the vote is to make the naturalization process easier for third generation "immigrants". It's a uniquely Swiss thing to actually have non-naturalized third generation Ausländer to begin with. Nothing dishonest about it at all.
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  #36  
Old 13.01.2017, 13:10
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Re: Vote on allowing easier citizenship for third generation

Obviously this guy would vote for it.
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  #37  
Old 13.01.2017, 14:15
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Re: Vote on allowing easier citizenship for third generation

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It's a uniquely Swiss thing to actually have non-naturalized third generation Ausländer to begin with. Nothing dishonest about it at all.
Actually no. Will apply to pretty well any country which grants citizenship by descent rather than place of birth (which is most in Europe). Many Asian countries are far more restrictive.
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  #38  
Old 13.01.2017, 14:16
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Re: Vote on allowing easier citizenship for third generation

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Default voting position. See what the SVP support and vote the other way.
Yes, and no - the way I understand it, there would be no vetting, but the Commune could refuse if they have 'valid' grounds.

Thinking about the Italian kids I grew up in the early 50s, their grandchildren have practically no ties with Italy apart from a week's holiday there from time to time- Switzerland is their home, basta. Their parents might drag them to the Cercle Italien for a meal or some cutural activity- and that is about it.

However, I agree with Urs that it is a non issue- as naturalisation for them would be quick and easy anyhow. They went to school here, speak the language perfectly, know about the history, culture, geography, etc.
So a bit of a fuss about nothing. Which makes the SVP/UDC posters even more disgusting and tragic.
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  #39  
Old 13.01.2017, 14:18
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Re: Vote on allowing easier citizenship for third generation

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No it isn't. The entire point of the vote is to make the naturalization process easier for third generation "immigrants". It's a uniquely Swiss thing to actually have non-naturalized third generation Ausländer to begin with. Nothing dishonest about it at all.
Bollocks.

Any country with ius sanguinis has them. Including Germany. Btw the article demonstrates quite clearly that 3rd generation is far from equivalent with near-certain good integration - though the situation is probably better around here.

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I guess I'm supposed to know who Luca is?
Luca is the equivalent of John Doe WRT 3rd generation foreigners here. At least that's how I understand it.
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Old 13.01.2017, 14:20
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Re: Vote on allowing easier citizenship for third generation

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Nope, sorry, that would be dumb. No better than just following a party's lead.
Strictly speaking you're right but at least 90% of the time the dictum works after investigation as well.
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