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-   -   Vote on allowing easier citizenship for third generation (https://www.englishforum.ch/swiss-politics-news/264917-vote-allowing-easier-citizenship-third-generation.html)

aSwissInTheUS 13.01.2017 15:47

Re: Vote on allowing easier citizenship for third generation
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by marton (Post 2723039)
I am hovering between "why not" and "if I vote no am I implicitly approving that horrible SVP poster".

On balance I think the SVP have pushed me towards yes :)

On the other hand, with sharing, publishing, and making the poster known to a wider public you are already fulfilling SVP wishes. Voting No would be simpler and more stringent in your being as one of their many useful idiots.

(Sorry when I am so frank and blunt.)

st2lemans 13.01.2017 16:12

Re: Vote on allowing easier citizenship for third generation
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Treverus (Post 2722953)
Yeah, but most Italians living in your area in Ticino are probably somehow tied to Italy and might even speak the language properly...

I knew plenty in Zurich as well. ;)

Tom

Urs Max 13.01.2017 17:06

Re: Vote on allowing easier citizenship for third generation
 
What's the typical cost of a "standard" naturalisation anyway?
(standard = grownup with 12 years residency, adjusted for school years if applicable)

This member (presumably from Richterswil, ZŁrich) says it cost him/her "1000 for the Gemeinde, 500 for the canton, 100 for Bern and 15 for the post office" with no additional costs expected. Of course charges by Kanton and Gemeinde will differ, but by how much?

Those who got naturalised while cost still depended on income (no idea until when this applied) please clearly mark it to avoid confusion (if you think it's worth posting even though it no longer has much relevance).

Edit:
MrVertigo says that in Vaud (commune unknown) it costs less than 2000 for two grownups (presumably married couple) plus two kids born in Switzerland (does that matter?).

aSwissInTheUS 13.01.2017 17:28

Re: Vote on allowing easier citizenship for third generation
 
City of Zurich :
CHF 250 if bellow age of 25
CHF 1200 if above age of 25
CHF ??? if age is 25.

https://www.stadt-zuerich.ch/portal/...setzungen.html

Kanton of Zurich :
CHF 250 if bellow age of 25.
CHF 500 if above age of 25.
CHF ??? if age is 25.

Extra residency requirement for 16 to 25 years born or at least 5 educated in one of Switzerlands official language is: Last two years in Canton.
Otherwise it is last two years in commune.
http://www.gaz.zh.ch/internet/justiz...rdernisse.html
http://www.gaz.zh.ch/internet/justiz...gebuehren.html

Federal:
CHF 50 to 150

http://www.gaz.zh.ch/internet/justiz...gebuehren.html

DanLF 13.01.2017 17:29

Re: Vote on allowing easier citizenship for third generation
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Urs Max (Post 2723130)
What's the typical cost of a "standard" naturalisation anyway?
(standard = grownup with 12 years residency, adjusted for school years if applicable)

This member (presumably from Richterswil, ZŁrich) says it cost him/her "1000 for the Gemeinde, 500 for the canton, 100 for Bern and 15 for the post office" with no additional costs expected. Of course charges by Kanton and Gemeinde will differ, but by how much?

Those who got naturalised while cost still depended on income (no idea until when this applied) please clearly mark it to avoid confusion (if you think it's worth posting even though it no longer has much relevance).

The cost varies considerably. This article written in 2015 should give you an idea: http://lenews.ch/2015/04/22/7-step-g...wiss-passport/

However, generally under 25s seem to already pay less.

Something else to consider in this debate. Naturalisation is about to become more difficult (from sometime early this year), as will holding a C permit and retaining a C permit.

edit: I honestly feel like I dodged a bullet getting my citizenship last month.

Dack Rambo 13.01.2017 17:54

Re: Vote on allowing easier citizenship for third generation
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by DanLF (Post 2723143)
Naturalisation is about to become more difficult (from sometime early this year), as will holding a C permit and retaining a C permit.

What is going to become more difficult about retaining a C permit?

Jim2007 13.01.2017 17:56

Re: Vote on allowing easier citizenship for third generation
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by marton (Post 2723039)
I am hovering between "why not" and "if I vote no am I implicitly approving that horrible SVP poster".

On balance I think the SVP have pushed me towards yes :)

It makes no difference what the issue is, if you vote in favour of anything put up by the SVP, you are giving credibility a racist party because there is no way to distinguish between voting in favour of an issue and a party. As far as I'm concerned there is absolutely no tolerable excuse for voting for the SVP.

st2lemans 13.01.2017 18:07

Re: Vote on allowing easier citizenship for third generation
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim2007 (Post 2723157)
As far as I'm concerned there is absolutely no tolerable excuse for voting for the SVP.

I feel the same way about the PS. :msnsick:

Tom

curley 13.01.2017 18:11

Re: Vote on allowing easier citizenship for third generation
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim2007 (Post 2723157)
It makes no difference what the issue is, if you vote in favour of anything put up by the SVP, you are giving credibility a racist party because there is no way to distinguish between voting in favour of an issue and a party. As far as I'm concerned there is absolutely no tolerable excuse for voting for the SVP.

Quote:

Originally Posted by st2lemans (Post 2723163)
I feel the same way about the PS. :msnsick:

Tom

Both are not good reasons to vote. The idea is to reach your own opinion - who cares who else shares it on the particular subject?!

Guest 13.01.2017 18:14

Re: Vote on allowing easier citizenship for third generation
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by st2lemans (Post 2723163)
I feel the same way about the PS. :msnsick:

Tom

There are alternatives you know!

st2lemans 13.01.2017 18:18

Re: Vote on allowing easier citizenship for third generation
 
Quote:

There are alternatives you know!
Indeed. Lega dei Ticinese! :p

Tom

curley 13.01.2017 18:26

Re: Vote on allowing easier citizenship for third generation
 
This thread is not about elections! So what is asked in this is your vote, based on your personal opinion/conviction!
So who gives a fu** what directions the parties give for it?

And it's not advise you're giving - it is for real! So think about it well.

Just don't let me hear "well, I figured it was not the right decision but my party told me to vote like that" :msnmad:

Guest 13.01.2017 18:28

Re: Vote on allowing easier citizenship for third generation
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by st2lemans (Post 2723169)
Indeed. Lega dei Ticinese! :p

Tom

NO, I meant between the left (as PS is not extreme) and extreme right...so Lega? NO:msnsick:

DanLF 13.01.2017 18:38

Re: Vote on allowing easier citizenship for third generation
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Dack Rambo (Post 2723156)
What is going to become more difficult about retaining a C permit?

To keep the C permit it will become necessary to demonstrate sufficient integration. Failure would mean dropping to a B permit.

The Swiss government sees a C permit as being the same as a citizen (expect for voting rights).

Actually, how does it work for a secundo or terzo born here currently? They are on C permits from birth?

Guest 13.01.2017 18:40

Re: Vote on allowing easier citizenship for third generation
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by DanLF (Post 2723176)
Actually, how does it work for a secundo or terzo born here currently? They are on C permits from birth?

Our kids are on C permits: British citizens, if that's relevant.

kriss kross 13.01.2017 19:35

Re: Vote on allowing easier citizenship for third generation
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by greenmount (Post 2722758)
It doesn't matter what the parents or grandparents did in regards to integration, every case is (thankfully) judged individually. If one is integrated, and there are very big chances a "terzo" is integrated, then gaining the citizenship is a formality.
What do you propose, judging someone based on the deeds of their parents?

I agree that if a third generation 'terzo' is integrated in CH then it is not very difficult to get citizenship, like you said it's a formality. This vote is not really about them.

This vote is more about the people who are third generation born here, yet are unable get citizenship. Why are they struggling with this? Seems the most likely reason must be a lack of integration with the broader society, otherwise what is stopping them from going through the normal naturalisation process the same as everybody else?

If you are third generation born in Switzerland and you are still unable to integrate enough to get your citizenship then there is a serious problem.
And I donít think the solution to that problem is to simply make the citizenship process easier for those who, frankly, canít cut the mustard.

Citizenship of any country is a privilege and it should be earned.

st2lemans 13.01.2017 20:10

Re: Vote on allowing easier citizenship for third generation
 
Quote:

NO, I meant between the left (as PS is not extreme) and extreme right...so Lega? NO:msnsick:
Lega is not right wing. :rolleyes:

They are not anti foreigner, they are anti Bern! :p

(then again, all those north of the Alps are foreigners as far as we are concerned :D)

Tom

DanLF 13.01.2017 20:14

Re: Vote on allowing easier citizenship for third generation
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by kriss kross (Post 2723201)
I agree that if a third generation 'terzo' is integrated in CH then it is not very difficult to get citizenship, like you said it's a formality. This vote is not really about them.

This vote is more about the people who are third generation born here, yet are unable get citizenship. Why are they struggling with this? Seems the most likely reason must be a lack of integration with the broader society, otherwise what is stopping them from going through the normal naturalisation process the same as everybody else?

If you are third generation born in Switzerland and you are still unable to integrate enough to get your citizenship then there is a serious problem.
And I donít think the solution to that problem is to simply make the citizenship process easier for those who, frankly, canít cut the mustard.

Citizenship of any country is a privilege and it should be earned.

The cost of applying for citizenship should be taken into account. I guess it might be possible that some parents can't afford to pay for putting their kids through the process.

Also the residency requirement for a child seems unnecessary, especially as they generally have no control over it.

And finally, the reasons that some communes give for blocking the process aren't always entirely to do with how well integrated a family is. Wearing the wrong type of trousers has been given as a reason for example.

Dack Rambo 13.01.2017 20:19

Re: Vote on allowing easier citizenship for third generation
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by DanLF (Post 2723176)
To keep the C permit it will become necessary to demonstrate sufficient integration. Failure would mean dropping to a B permit.

Thanks. Do you have any source for this information? Will this also apply to EU citizens?

st2lemans 13.01.2017 20:19

Re: Vote on allowing easier citizenship for third generation
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by DanLF (Post 2723210)
Wearing the wrong type of trousers has been given as a reason for example.

Alas, the Swiss don't want to become a land of Walmart people. ;)

Tom


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