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  #61  
Old 13.01.2017, 16:47
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Re: Vote on allowing easier citizenship for third generation

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I am hovering between "why not" and "if I vote no am I implicitly approving that horrible SVP poster".

On balance I think the SVP have pushed me towards yes
On the other hand, with sharing, publishing, and making the poster known to a wider public you are already fulfilling SVP wishes. Voting No would be simpler and more stringent in your being as one of their many useful idiots.

(Sorry when I am so frank and blunt.)
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Old 13.01.2017, 17:12
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Re: Vote on allowing easier citizenship for third generation

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Yeah, but most Italians living in your area in Ticino are probably somehow tied to Italy and might even speak the language properly...
I knew plenty in Zurich as well.

Tom
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Old 13.01.2017, 18:06
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Re: Vote on allowing easier citizenship for third generation

What's the typical cost of a "standard" naturalisation anyway?
(standard = grownup with 12 years residency, adjusted for school years if applicable)

This member (presumably from Richterswil, ZŁrich) says it cost him/her "1000 for the Gemeinde, 500 for the canton, 100 for Bern and 15 for the post office" with no additional costs expected. Of course charges by Kanton and Gemeinde will differ, but by how much?

Those who got naturalised while cost still depended on income (no idea until when this applied) please clearly mark it to avoid confusion (if you think it's worth posting even though it no longer has much relevance).

Edit:
MrVertigo says that in Vaud (commune unknown) it costs less than 2000 for two grownups (presumably married couple) plus two kids born in Switzerland (does that matter?).

Last edited by Urs Max; 13.01.2017 at 18:24.
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  #64  
Old 13.01.2017, 18:28
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Re: Vote on allowing easier citizenship for third generation

City of Zurich :
CHF 250 if bellow age of 25
CHF 1200 if above age of 25
CHF ??? if age is 25.

https://www.stadt-zuerich.ch/portal/...setzungen.html

Kanton of Zurich :
CHF 250 if bellow age of 25.
CHF 500 if above age of 25.
CHF ??? if age is 25.

Extra residency requirement for 16 to 25 years born or at least 5 educated in one of Switzerlands official language is: Last two years in Canton.
Otherwise it is last two years in commune.
http://www.gaz.zh.ch/internet/justiz...rdernisse.html
http://www.gaz.zh.ch/internet/justiz...gebuehren.html

Federal:
CHF 50 to 150

http://www.gaz.zh.ch/internet/justiz...gebuehren.html
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  #65  
Old 13.01.2017, 18:29
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Re: Vote on allowing easier citizenship for third generation

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What's the typical cost of a "standard" naturalisation anyway?
(standard = grownup with 12 years residency, adjusted for school years if applicable)

This member (presumably from Richterswil, ZŁrich) says it cost him/her "1000 for the Gemeinde, 500 for the canton, 100 for Bern and 15 for the post office" with no additional costs expected. Of course charges by Kanton and Gemeinde will differ, but by how much?

Those who got naturalised while cost still depended on income (no idea until when this applied) please clearly mark it to avoid confusion (if you think it's worth posting even though it no longer has much relevance).
The cost varies considerably. This article written in 2015 should give you an idea: http://lenews.ch/2015/04/22/7-step-g...wiss-passport/

However, generally under 25s seem to already pay less.

Something else to consider in this debate. Naturalisation is about to become more difficult (from sometime early this year), as will holding a C permit and retaining a C permit.

edit: I honestly feel like I dodged a bullet getting my citizenship last month.

Last edited by DanLF; 13.01.2017 at 18:31. Reason: Added a bit extra
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  #66  
Old 13.01.2017, 18:54
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Re: Vote on allowing easier citizenship for third generation

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Naturalisation is about to become more difficult (from sometime early this year), as will holding a C permit and retaining a C permit.
What is going to become more difficult about retaining a C permit?
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  #67  
Old 13.01.2017, 18:56
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Re: Vote on allowing easier citizenship for third generation

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I am hovering between "why not" and "if I vote no am I implicitly approving that horrible SVP poster".

On balance I think the SVP have pushed me towards yes
It makes no difference what the issue is, if you vote in favour of anything put up by the SVP, you are giving credibility a racist party because there is no way to distinguish between voting in favour of an issue and a party. As far as I'm concerned there is absolutely no tolerable excuse for voting for the SVP.
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  #68  
Old 13.01.2017, 19:07
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Re: Vote on allowing easier citizenship for third generation

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As far as I'm concerned there is absolutely no tolerable excuse for voting for the SVP.
I feel the same way about the PS.

Tom
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  #69  
Old 13.01.2017, 19:11
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Re: Vote on allowing easier citizenship for third generation

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It makes no difference what the issue is, if you vote in favour of anything put up by the SVP, you are giving credibility a racist party because there is no way to distinguish between voting in favour of an issue and a party. As far as I'm concerned there is absolutely no tolerable excuse for voting for the SVP.
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I feel the same way about the PS.

Tom
Both are not good reasons to vote. The idea is to reach your own opinion - who cares who else shares it on the particular subject?!
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Old 13.01.2017, 19:14
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Re: Vote on allowing easier citizenship for third generation

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I feel the same way about the PS.

Tom
There are alternatives you know!
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  #71  
Old 13.01.2017, 19:18
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Re: Vote on allowing easier citizenship for third generation

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There are alternatives you know!
Indeed. Lega dei Ticinese!

Tom
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  #72  
Old 13.01.2017, 19:26
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Re: Vote on allowing easier citizenship for third generation

This thread is not about elections! So what is asked in this is your vote, based on your personal opinion/conviction!
So who gives a fu** what directions the parties give for it?

And it's not advise you're giving - it is for real! So think about it well.

Just don't let me hear "well, I figured it was not the right decision but my party told me to vote like that"
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  #73  
Old 13.01.2017, 19:28
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Re: Vote on allowing easier citizenship for third generation

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Indeed. Lega dei Ticinese!

Tom
NO, I meant between the left (as PS is not extreme) and extreme right...so Lega? NO
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  #74  
Old 13.01.2017, 19:38
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Re: Vote on allowing easier citizenship for third generation

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What is going to become more difficult about retaining a C permit?
To keep the C permit it will become necessary to demonstrate sufficient integration. Failure would mean dropping to a B permit.

The Swiss government sees a C permit as being the same as a citizen (expect for voting rights).

Actually, how does it work for a secundo or terzo born here currently? They are on C permits from birth?
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Old 13.01.2017, 19:40
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Re: Vote on allowing easier citizenship for third generation

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Actually, how does it work for a secundo or terzo born here currently? They are on C permits from birth?
Our kids are on C permits: British citizens, if that's relevant.
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Old 13.01.2017, 20:35
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Re: Vote on allowing easier citizenship for third generation

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It doesn't matter what the parents or grandparents did in regards to integration, every case is (thankfully) judged individually. If one is integrated, and there are very big chances a "terzo" is integrated, then gaining the citizenship is a formality.
What do you propose, judging someone based on the deeds of their parents?
I agree that if a third generation 'terzo' is integrated in CH then it is not very difficult to get citizenship, like you said it's a formality. This vote is not really about them.

This vote is more about the people who are third generation born here, yet are unable get citizenship. Why are they struggling with this? Seems the most likely reason must be a lack of integration with the broader society, otherwise what is stopping them from going through the normal naturalisation process the same as everybody else?

If you are third generation born in Switzerland and you are still unable to integrate enough to get your citizenship then there is a serious problem.
And I donít think the solution to that problem is to simply make the citizenship process easier for those who, frankly, canít cut the mustard.

Citizenship of any country is a privilege and it should be earned.
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  #77  
Old 13.01.2017, 21:10
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Re: Vote on allowing easier citizenship for third generation

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NO, I meant between the left (as PS is not extreme) and extreme right...so Lega? NO
Lega is not right wing.

They are not anti foreigner, they are anti Bern!

(then again, all those north of the Alps are foreigners as far as we are concerned )

Tom
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Old 13.01.2017, 21:14
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Re: Vote on allowing easier citizenship for third generation

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I agree that if a third generation 'terzo' is integrated in CH then it is not very difficult to get citizenship, like you said it's a formality. This vote is not really about them.

This vote is more about the people who are third generation born here, yet are unable get citizenship. Why are they struggling with this? Seems the most likely reason must be a lack of integration with the broader society, otherwise what is stopping them from going through the normal naturalisation process the same as everybody else?

If you are third generation born in Switzerland and you are still unable to integrate enough to get your citizenship then there is a serious problem.
And I donít think the solution to that problem is to simply make the citizenship process easier for those who, frankly, canít cut the mustard.

Citizenship of any country is a privilege and it should be earned.
The cost of applying for citizenship should be taken into account. I guess it might be possible that some parents can't afford to pay for putting their kids through the process.

Also the residency requirement for a child seems unnecessary, especially as they generally have no control over it.

And finally, the reasons that some communes give for blocking the process aren't always entirely to do with how well integrated a family is. Wearing the wrong type of trousers has been given as a reason for example.
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  #79  
Old 13.01.2017, 21:19
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Re: Vote on allowing easier citizenship for third generation

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To keep the C permit it will become necessary to demonstrate sufficient integration. Failure would mean dropping to a B permit.
Thanks. Do you have any source for this information? Will this also apply to EU citizens?
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Old 13.01.2017, 21:19
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Re: Vote on allowing easier citizenship for third generation

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Wearing the wrong type of trousers has been given as a reason for example.
Alas, the Swiss don't want to become a land of Walmart people.

Tom
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