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  #81  
Old 13.01.2017, 21:31
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Re: Vote on allowing easier citizenship for third generation

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Thanks. Do you have any source for this information? Will this also apply to EU citizens?
There's a whole thread on it: Integration, might apply also to 'C' permit holders

And now back your regular programming on terzos...

Last edited by 3Wishes; 14.01.2017 at 13:34. Reason: typo
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  #82  
Old 13.01.2017, 22:32
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Re: Vote on allowing easier citizenship for third generation

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The cost of applying for citizenship should be taken into account. I guess it might be possible that some parents can't afford to pay for putting their kids through the process
But if the issue with gaining citizenship is to do with the costs involved wouldn't it make sense to offer some sort of financial assistance towards naturalisation rather than simplifying the whole process?

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And finally, the reasons that some communes give for blocking the process aren't always entirely to do with how well integrated a family is. Wearing the wrong type of trousers has been given as a reason for example.
Actually, it is exactly about how well integrated a family is.
Regarding the news article you're referring to, their trackpants were one of the reasons they were rejected, but not the only one.
Ultimately they were deemed (rightly or wrongly) to have not been sufficiently integrated and that's why they were rejected.

I believe the Swiss system of naturalisation, whilst not perfect, is one of the best in the world. And I don't see a reason to water it down for someone just because their family has been living in CH for 'long enough'

Instead of lowering the bar for them perhaps we should be questioning exactly why they are unable to integrate after spending so long (generations!) in the country?!
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  #83  
Old 13.01.2017, 23:16
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Re: Vote on allowing easier citizenship for third generation

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Lega is not right wing.

They are not anti foreigner, they are anti Bern!

(then again, all those north of the Alps are foreigners as far as we are concerned )

Tom
Only northern foreigners ..... yeah, we have that term and feeling too.
Although the further North the friendlier we feel again.

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Alas, the Swiss don't want to become a land of Walmart people.

Tom
Nope, we don't want a two-class society where the newbies seem to have access to Walmart and we don't
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  #84  
Old 13.01.2017, 23:31
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Re: Vote on allowing easier citizenship for third generation

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Only northern foreigners
Yes, the BIG canton!

Yet most Ticinese are married with zucchini!

Also, for us Romandie and German Swiss is the same!

Tom

P.S. Geneva is north for us.
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  #85  
Old 13.01.2017, 23:43
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Re: Vote on allowing easier citizenship for third generation

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Actually, it is exactly about how well integrated a family is.
Regarding the news article you're referring to, their trackpants were one of the reasons they were rejected, but not the only one.
Ultimately they were deemed (rightly or wrongly) to have not been sufficiently integrated and that's why they were rejected.

I believe the Swiss system of naturalisation, whilst not perfect, is one of the best in the world. And I don't see a reason to water it down for someone just because their family has been living in CH for 'long enough'
Funny. Most of my "pure blooded" Swiss friends openly admit that they would *never* meet the so called integration standards that are expected in many places as they never bothered to join clubs or other such cliche rubbish.
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  #86  
Old 14.01.2017, 00:12
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Re: Vote on allowing easier citizenship for third generation

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Actually, it is exactly about how well integrated a family is.
Regarding the news article you're referring to, their trackpants were one of the reasons they were rejected, but not the only one.
Ultimately they were deemed (rightly or wrongly) to have not been sufficiently integrated and that's why they were rejected.
Yes, another reason according to that article was that they didn't greet people in passing.

Also, according to the same article a local resident said "The arguments against the naturalization were purely emotional".

The next generation of this family will very much need the help of this change in the law it seems, because the first 2 generations have little hope.

http://www.thelocal.ch/20160609/immi...ice-of-clothes

edit: The more I think about this case the more I realise that when it comes down to the commune level, it's not so much about "have you integrated?" as "do we like you?". I'm not saying this is wrong... it's just got nothing to do with integration in my opinion.

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  #87  
Old 14.01.2017, 00:24
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Re: Vote on allowing easier citizenship for third generation

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Funny. Most of my "pure blooded" Swiss friends openly admit that they would *never* meet the so called integration standards that are expected in many places as they never bothered to join clubs or other such cliche rubbish.
I believe your Swiss friends that they find the process too hard - on the other hand I also know plenty of people that have become Swiss, but it's actually irrelevant.

This vote is not about whether it's too hard to become naturalized, it's about making the process easier for third generation immigrants whose family's have been in the country longer.

To me the idea seems backwards as I think that if you're a third generation immigrant then the process should be even easier for you.
If you're third generation and still can't integrate then I think there's a serious problem and lowering the standard is not a solution.
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  #88  
Old 14.01.2017, 00:40
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Re: Vote on allowing easier citizenship for third generation

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Yes, another reason according to that article was that they didn't greet people in passing.

Also, according to the same article a local resident said "The arguments against the naturalization were purely emotional".

The next generation of this family will very much need the help of this change in the law it seems, because the first 2 generations have little hope.

http://www.thelocal.ch/20160609/immi...ice-of-clothes

edit: The more I think about this case the more I realise that when it comes down to the commune level, it's not so much about "have you integrated?" as "do we like you?". I'm not saying this is wrong... it's just got nothing to do with integration in my opinion.
From what i've read about that story it does sound unjustified, I agree. But that is just one case (and there may have been more to the story)

Again, the vote is not about simplifying the citizenship for everybody - only for third generation immigrants on the basis that there family has been in CH longer.
I think that's backwards as the process should actually be even easier for them.
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  #89  
Old 14.01.2017, 00:55
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Re: Vote on allowing easier citizenship for third generation

While I would normally vote yes, all this anti SVP stuff is pushing me to vote NO.

Tom
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  #90  
Old 14.01.2017, 01:10
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Re: Vote on allowing easier citizenship for third generation

I have a lot to say.

But I can't I'm drunk.
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  #91  
Old 14.01.2017, 01:59
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Re: Vote on allowing easier citizenship for third generation

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Yet most Ticinese are married with zucchini!
Tom
That's because in the end we're the best after all

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Funny. Most of my "pure blooded" Swiss friends openly admit that they would *never* meet the so called integration standards that are expected in many places as they never bothered to join clubs or other such cliche rubbish.
Yep, same here. The only club I'm in is TCS .... and that's my cars actually. Also if I had to pass that test tomorrow I probably wouldn't.
The club thing in this naturalization process I never understood. I hardly know any people who are members of clubs.

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I have a lot to say.
But I can't I'm drunk.
That's why you do .... so say it.
Oh and it's your fault I poured myself a glass of wine just now, you know.
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  #92  
Old 14.01.2017, 07:28
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Re: Vote on allowing easier citizenship for third generation

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From what i've read about that story it does sound unjustified, I agree. But that is just one case (and there may have been more to the story)

Again, the vote is not about simplifying the citizenship for everybody - only for third generation immigrants on the basis that there family has been in CH longer.
I think that's backwards as the process should actually be even easier for them.
How exactly is it irrelevant? The normal integration tests can require a rather cookie cutter definition of integration which even many Swiss themselves fail to identify with. There is a disconnect between being integrated in practical terms and being integrated "by the books." However, this is normal for any test that is meant for a rather wide audience. Surely, it can be improved but it is never going to be perfect.

The point of the vote is that it accepts that the terzos are integrated in practical terms and they do not need to bear with the costs and narrow definition of what it means to be a Swiss as subjected by the normal test.

If this was a data science problem, this is exactly what I would do. Stratify my population in meaningful sub-populations and apply a more targeted test for each as this strategy is going to be optimal at controlling both false positive and false negative rates. Point of the vote is that applying the normal test on terzos is unnecessarily conservative and you can make it more liberal to lower your false negatives without increasing the rate of false positives. It is a no-brainer.
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  #93  
Old 14.01.2017, 10:27
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Re: Vote on allowing easier citizenship for third generation

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Yes, the BIG canton!

Yet most Ticinese are married with zucchini!

Also, for us Romandie and German Swiss is the same!

Tom

P.S. Geneva is north for us.
I just realised that one of the things for which I really wish the Swiss citizenship is to be able to come back to EF and smugly write things like this...
I'll enjoy it..
(kidding)


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Citizenship of any country is a privilege and it should be earned.
Very much agree with that.
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  #94  
Old 14.01.2017, 12:24
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Re: Vote on allowing easier citizenship for third generation

How about starting from the view that does Switzerland need more immigrants ?

If yes then what kind of immigrants does it need most ?

Who are the best people to make the decision ? Those who live closest to them I reckon - certainly a lot of drug dealing families in Ireland who terrorise their communities and intimidate witnesses against them would be (correctly) discriminated against by such measures.
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Old 14.01.2017, 12:26
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Re: Vote on allowing easier citizenship for third generation

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From what i've read about that story it does sound unjustified, I agree. But that is just one case (and there may have been more to the story)
Yes the people of Bubendorf wanted the family ("when the authorities were considering sending them back to Kosovo") in 2005 but somehow changed their mind... I suspect a lot is missing from the story
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  #96  
Old 14.01.2017, 14:34
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Re: Vote on allowing easier citizenship for third generation

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It makes no difference what the issue is, if you vote in favour of anything put up by the SVP, you are giving credibility a racist party because there is no way to distinguish between voting in favour of an issue and a party. As far as I'm concerned there is absolutely no tolerable excuse for voting for the SVP.
I thought this was a government initiative, that happens to be opposed by the SVP. As such, a no vote doesn't necessarily mean that a person supports SVP. It could mean they just think the initiative isn't needed (i.e. terzos should already be integrated) or they want to keep naturalization as-is.

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...Citizenship of any country is a privilege and it should be earned.
Well, except the citizenship(s) you're born with. No earning required there.

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Funny. Most of my "pure blooded" Swiss friends openly admit that they would *never* meet the so called integration standards that are expected in many places as they never bothered to join clubs or other such cliche rubbish.
This is true of most Americans too. However I think it's important to draw a distinction between the citizenship(s) we can claim by birthright vs. making a deliberate choice to pursue an additional citizenship. I also think the "clubs" argument is a bit over-used.

Clubs are an "easy" way to meet the integration requirement, but they're not the only way. First and foremost, we know our neighbors and interact with them regularly. We shop in the local shops and know the local business owners, if not by name then certainly by face. We attend many of the village activities. My husband speaks the local dialect, I understand a fair amount, and I try to speak German as much as possible rather than first asking if someone speaks English.

If an individual wishes to pursue an additional citizenship, he or she should meet the requirements set out. Unfortunately in CH some of those requirements are subjective instead of objective, and that's where the integration question gets sticky. Genevans see integration much differently than say, Appenzellers.
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Old 14.01.2017, 15:14
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Re: Vote on allowing easier citizenship for third generation

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What's the typical cost of a "standard" naturalisation anyway?
(standard = grownup with 12 years residency, adjusted for school years if applicable)

This member (presumably from Richterswil, Zürich) says it cost him/her "1000 for the Gemeinde, 500 for the canton, 100 for Bern and 15 for the post office" with no additional costs expected. Of course charges by Kanton and Gemeinde will differ, but by how much?

Those who got naturalised while cost still depended on income (no idea until when this applied) please clearly mark it to avoid confusion (if you think it's worth posting even though it no longer has much relevance).

Edit:
MrVertigo says that in Vaud (commune unknown) it costs less than 2000 for two grownups (presumably married couple) plus two kids born in Switzerland (does that matter?).
These are the costs for Neuchâtel. It would make sense for a young person to do it before reaching the age of 20 if the family wasn't making a joint application.
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  #98  
Old 14.01.2017, 18:42
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Re: Vote on allowing easier citizenship for third generation

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I just realised that one of the things for which I really wish the Swiss citizenship is to be able to come back to EF and smugly write things like this...
I'll enjoy it..
(kidding)
Face it, you are NOT kidding!

Tom
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  #99  
Old 14.01.2017, 19:09
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Re: Vote on allowing easier citizenship for third generation

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How exactly is it irrelevant? The normal integration tests can require a rather cookie cutter definition of integration which even many Swiss themselves fail to identify with.
When you say 'even many Swiss themselves fail to identify with' do you have any evidence for this or is this just your observations?
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There is a disconnect between being integrated in practical terms and being integrated "by the books." However, this is normal for any test that is meant for a rather wide audience. Surely, it can be improved but it is never going to be perfect.The point of the vote is that it accepts that the terzos are integrated in practical terms and they do not need to bear with the costs and narrow definition of what it means to be a Swiss as subjected by the normal test
''Integrated in practical terms'' What does this even mean? If they are integrated then there would be no major obstacle to their applications, period.
This vote is about third generation immigrants who have not integrated well enough and now need the process to be simplified in order for them to become citizens.
What’s wrong with suggesting that if they want to become Swiss citizens then they must integrate the same way as everyone else?

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If this was a data science problem, this is exactly what I would do. Stratify my population in meaningful sub-populations and apply a more targeted test for each as this strategy is going to be optimal at controlling both false positive and false negative rates. Point of the vote is that applying the normal test on terzos is unnecessarily conservative and you can make it more liberal to lower your false negatives without increasing the rate of false positives. It is a no-brainer.
How is expecting third generation immigrants to integrate and naturalise the same way as every single other person who wishes to become Swiss 'unnecessarily conservative'? If they are third generation born then the integration process should be even easier for them as opposed to somebody who has moved to CH with no roots in the country.
Making the process easier on the basis that they’ve been here longer is simply pandering to their failures.
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Old 14.01.2017, 19:16
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Re: Vote on allowing easier citizenship for third generation

What does "integrated" actually mean?
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