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Old 14.01.2017, 19:22
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Re: Vote on allowing easier citizenship for third generation

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Well, except the citizenship(s) you're born with. No earning required there.
Yep- reminds me of a recent interview on UK TV, with a young chap from UKIP complaining about immigrants being a drain on the country- and the inteviewer asked him what he contributed. His reply way 'I don't contribute at all, been on the dole since I left school- but that's OK innit, 'cause I'm British'...

And that hilarious video done by an Australian comedian- about ticking the nationality box when handed it by the midwife...

and complaining about furiners taking jobs and saying 'and do you know what- I shall have to learn to READ if I want to compete with them- how disgusting is that'!

Yes- but for the Grace of God/fate/luck go we all.
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  #102  
Old 14.01.2017, 20:37
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Re: Vote on allowing easier citizenship for third generation

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When you say 'even many Swiss themselves fail to identify with' do you have any evidence for this or is this just your observations?

''Integrated in practical terms'' What does this even mean? If they are integrated then there would be no major obstacle to their applications, period.
This vote is about third generation immigrants who have not integrated well enough and now need the process to be simplified in order for them to become citizens.
What’s wrong with suggesting that if they want to become Swiss citizens then they must integrate the same way as everyone else?


How is expecting third generation immigrants to integrate and naturalise the same way as every single other person who wishes to become Swiss 'unnecessarily conservative'? If they are third generation born then the integration process should be even easier for them as opposed to somebody who has moved to CH with no roots in the country.
Making the process easier on the basis that they’ve been here longer is simply pandering to their failures.
"This vote is about third generation immigrants who have not integrated well enough " No, actually it is about third generation immigrants whose parents and grandparents did not successfully apply for Swiss citizenship
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  #103  
Old 14.01.2017, 20:45
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Re: Vote on allowing easier citizenship for third generation

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When you say 'even many Swiss themselves fail to identify with' do you have any evidence for this or is this just your observations?

''Integrated in practical terms'' What does this even mean? If they are integrated then there would be no major obstacle to their applications, period.
This vote is about third generation immigrants who have not integrated well enough and now need the process to be simplified in order for them to become citizens.
What’s wrong with suggesting that if they want to become Swiss citizens then they must integrate the same way as everyone else?


How is expecting third generation immigrants to integrate and naturalise the same way as every single other person who wishes to become Swiss 'unnecessarily conservative'? If they are third generation born then the integration process should be even easier for them as opposed to somebody who has moved to CH with no roots in the country.
Making the process easier on the basis that they’ve been here longer is simply pandering to their failures.
"When you say 'even many Swiss themselves fail to identify with' do you have any evidence for this or is this just your observations?" How other than observations can one identify this?

I know a number of local Swiss people who belong to no clubs, do not shop locally and do not get involved in local events.
They commute to work and any social life they have is in the neighbourhood of where they work.
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  #104  
Old 14.01.2017, 20:53
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Re: Vote on allowing easier citizenship for third generation

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"This vote is about third generation immigrants who have not integrated well enough " No, actually it is about third generation immigrants whose parents and grandparents did not successfully apply for Swiss citizenship
So because their parents and grandparents were unable to gain citizenship then we should make it easier for the third generation. Why?

Can they not simply apply for citizenship the standard way? You know, like everyone else?

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"When you say 'even many Swiss themselves fail to identify with' do you have any evidence for this or is this just your observations?" How other than observations can one identify this?
Polls, statistics,research... Pretty much any recorded evidence that didn't just pop into your head.

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I know a number of local Swiss people who belong to no clubs, do not shop locally and do not get involved in local events.
They commute to work and any social life they have is in the neighbourhood of where they work.
Are they applying for Swiss citizenship?

Last edited by kriss kross; 14.01.2017 at 21:08.
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  #105  
Old 14.01.2017, 20:54
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Re: Vote on allowing easier citizenship for third generation

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Well, except the citizenship(s) you're born with. No earning required there.
And rightly so, too!

I know it's incomprehensible to many North Americans, but in the Old World, if nationality - with all its attendant privileges - cannot be acquired by descent then it is effectively meaningless, other than as a bureaucratic concept.

That is not to suggest that naturalisation is in any way a bad thing - but for a country to accept a person as one of their own, that person has a duty to put a bit more bloody effort into it than someone who is already part of the clan by blood.

That's what makes me so sad about the British naturalisation process. It's so much of a joke, most people I've met who acquired British citizenship in adulthood only did so as a means to an end. Hardly any of them have or had any genuine links or long term commitment to the United Kingdom.

My kids have never been to England, but they'll always be English. It's in their genes!
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  #106  
Old 14.01.2017, 21:14
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Re: Vote on allowing easier citizenship for third generation

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and complaining about furiners taking jobs and saying 'and do you know what- I shall have to learn to READ if I want to compete with them- how disgusting is that'!

Wealthy 'liberals' telling the struggling working class that they are illiterate racists and they just need to work harder and change professions because wage dumping is inevitable with mass immigration...

that'll go over well - It'll be a 'titanic success'!
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  #107  
Old 15.01.2017, 00:04
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Re: Vote on allowing easier citizenship for third generation

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What does "integrated" actually mean?
We no longer have to tell you that you can get brown sugar in Migros, yes you have to pay the speeding fine if you get one and you've had at least two proper wash-machine/room fight since you arrived in Switzerland.
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  #108  
Old 15.01.2017, 19:06
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Re: Vote on allowing easier citizenship for third generation

Switzerland does make it easy for foreigners to claim nationality beyond just have some ancient grandfather who once knew someone from Appenzell.

Just to make it clear though, you need to be fast, very fast, Olympic fast and not mind having a number pinned onto your chest when you go out running if you want to qualify.
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  #109  
Old 17.01.2017, 12:03
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Re: Vote on allowing easier citizenship for third generation

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I know it's incomprehensible to many North Americans, but in the Old World, if nationality - with all its attendant privileges - cannot be acquired by descent then it is effectively meaningless, other than as a bureaucratic concept.
I get your perspective and it is a pretty easy one to have when your home country happens to be an island. I don't agree the same is true for all of the old world at all... Nationality is a very new concept compared to the rest of our history. Many European nations we take for granted today were established in the 1840 to 1850s. Before that we had a lot of small kingdoms and lands including the population changed hand from one ruler to another rather frequently. "France is where the people speak French and Germany is where the Germans live" was never really true and the actual reason why we had the last two world wars... because the was a political drive to nationalism. Telling people that we - whoever "we" was - are better than the rest. My family originates from the Alsace and given the last three major wars was it pure coincidence wether you were French or German at any given time. People don't "naturally" feel connected to a passport. They feel at home in the place and around the people they grow up. The tone of the current discussion is once again pure nationalism and nobody in Switzerland even questions it anymore.

Simple example: The FDP politicians who fight FOR the easier naturalization of third gen immigrants says "nobody will be easily promoted to the Swiss nationality" - the choice of words clearly suggests that other nationalities are inferior. And that's the argument of the more tolerant side od the Swiss political spectrum... http://www.20min.ch/schweiz/news/sto...dert--27124922
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  #110  
Old 17.01.2017, 13:05
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Re: Vote on allowing easier citizenship for third generation

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Simple example: The FDP politicians who fight FOR the easier naturalization of third gen immigrants says "nobody will be easily promoted to the Swiss nationality" - the choice of words clearly suggests that other nationalities are inferior. And that's the argument of the more tolerant side od the Swiss political spectrum... http://www.20min.ch/schweiz/news/sto...dert--27124922
If one is a foreigner living in Switzerland, then acquisition of Swiss citizenship certainly is a promotion. In this context he is correct: all other nationalities are inferior, as none of them grants the privileges of full citizenship of the nation in which the applicant resides.
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  #111  
Old 17.01.2017, 13:17
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Re: Vote on allowing easier citizenship for third generation

Does citizenship demand any additional responsibility from a citizen? Should it?

I think for me it was just natural and organic. Upon citizenship, my interests gravitate over the best interests of the country.
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  #112  
Old 17.01.2017, 13:21
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Re: Vote on allowing easier citizenship for third generation

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Simple example: The FDP politicians who fight FOR the easier naturalization of third gen immigrants says "nobody will be easily promoted to the Swiss nationality" - the choice of words clearly suggests that other nationalities are inferior. And that's the argument of the more tolerant side od the Swiss political spectrum... http://www.20min.ch/schweiz/news/sto...dert--27124922
1) It is a BDP politician (Former SVP).
2) Read it in the context: "Einen Automatismus habe ich damals abgelehnt und tue dies auch heute noch. Die aktuelle Vorlage sieht vor, dass die Betroffenen einen Antrag stellen müssen, um eingebürgert zu werden. Es wird niemand einfach zum Schweizer befördert."

Paraphrased: "I was against automatic naturalization and I still am. In the actual proposals those who wish to be naturalized must apply for citizenship. Nobody will simply be promoted and become Swiss."
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  #113  
Old 17.01.2017, 13:23
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Re: Vote on allowing easier citizenship for third generation

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Wealthy 'liberals' telling the struggling working class that they are illiterate racists and they just need to work harder and change professions because wage dumping is inevitable with mass immigration...

that'll go over well - It'll be a 'titanic success'!
Mass immigration, wage dumping, frequency of profession changes, etc.? Could you please provide a source for us to see the impact?

Sure, immigration does have an impact but it would be better not to forget:
-automatization,
-digitalization,
-capital shifts, etc.

The first two are the current major forces behind that so-called massive transformations in the market. They are not some buzzwords anymore. As for the last one as well as some other political realignments, we will wait and see (e.g. China, Trump administration, some "deals", etc).
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  #114  
Old 17.01.2017, 15:04
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Re: Vote on allowing easier citizenship for third generation

Swissinfo has a nice article that also provides a bit more detail as to what the requirements would be under the new law.
http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/vote-feb...swiss/42777840
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  #115  
Old 17.01.2017, 15:19
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Re: Vote on allowing easier citizenship for third generation

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"This vote is about third generation immigrants who have not integrated well enough "
No, actually it is about third generation immigrants whose parents and grandparents did not successfully apply for Swiss citizenship
Parliamentarian Jean-Luc Ador argues that a person must earn the Swiss passport. His party colleague Lukas Reimann is adamant that easing the process of gaining citizenship could encourage grandchildren of people who are poorly integrated in Swiss society – even jihadists – to apply for Swiss nationality.

http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/vote-feb...swiss/42777840

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  #116  
Old 17.01.2017, 15:25
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Re: Vote on allowing easier citizenship for third generation

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Parliamentarian Jean-Luc Ador argues that a person must earn the Swiss passport. His party colleague Lukas Reimann is adamant that easing the process of gaining citizenship could encourage grandchildren of people who are poorly integrated in Swiss society – even jihadists – to apply for Swiss nationality.

http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/vote-feb...swiss/42777840


They really ought to define what "integration" means, and stipulate it at the federal level as well.
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  #117  
Old 17.01.2017, 15:37
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Re: Vote on allowing easier citizenship for third generation

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They really ought to define what "integration" means, and stipulate it at the federal level as well.
Federal Act on Foreign Nationals

Art. 4 Integration

1 The aim of integration is the co-existence of the resident Swiss and foreign population on the basis of the values of the Federal Constitution and mutual respect and tolerance.
2 Integration should enable foreign nationals who are lawfully resident in Switzerland for the longer term to participate in the economic, social and cultural life of the society.
3 Integration requires willingness on the part of the foreign nationals and openness on the part of the Swiss population.
4 Foreign nationals are required to familiarise themselves with the social conditions and way of life in Switzerland and in particular to learn a national language.

Easy Version:

Speak one of the national languages, make an effort to integrate into your local community, make an effort to celebrate Swiss culture and traditions, be able to provide for yourself without being a burden on the state and respect the Swiss laws.

If you can't or won't do the above then not only do you not deserve Swiss citizenship, I can't understand why you would want it
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  #118  
Old 17.01.2017, 15:48
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Re: Vote on allowing easier citizenship for third generation

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That's what makes me so sad about the British naturalisation process. It's so much of a joke, most people I've met who acquired British citizenship in adulthood only did so as a means to an end. Hardly any of them have or had any genuine links or long term commitment to the United Kingdom.
Depends what sort of people you're talking about.

I know a number of Sikhs who acquired Bristish nationaility and they absolutely have a huge commitment to Britain, enough to put most natural born Brits to shame. Several served in the armed forces and took bullets for Britain and that sort of thing. It's absolutely unacceptable to suggest they didn't deserve the citizenship.
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  #119  
Old 17.01.2017, 16:03
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Re: Vote on allowing easier citizenship for third generation

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Depends what sort of people you're talking about.

I know a number of Sikhs who acquired Bristish nationaility and they absolutely have a huge commitment to Britain, enough to put most natural born Brits to shame. Several served in the armed forces and took bullets for Britain and that sort of thing. It's absolutely unacceptable to suggest they didn't deserve the citizenship.
A lot of immigrants in the US are more patriotic and nationalistic than those who were born there. They are just being realistic about the world and honest about their alternatives.
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  #120  
Old 17.01.2017, 16:08
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Re: Vote on allowing easier citizenship for third generation

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I get your perspective and it is a pretty easy one to have when your home country happens to be an island. I don't agree the same is true for all of the old world at all... Nationality is a very new concept compared to the rest of our history. Many European nations we take for granted today were established in the 1840 to 1850s. Before that we had a lot of small kingdoms and lands including the population changed hand from one ruler to another rather frequently. "France is where the people speak French and Germany is where the Germans live" was never really true and the actual reason why we had the last two world wars... because the was a political drive to nationalism. Telling people that we - whoever "we" was - are better than the rest. My family originates from the Alsace and given the last three major wars was it pure coincidence wether you were French or German at any given time. People don't "naturally" feel connected to a passport. They feel at home in the place and around the people they grow up. The tone of the current discussion is once again pure nationalism and nobody in Switzerland even questions it anymore.
I agree with your take on nationality. But I disagree that language or the place you live doesn't contribute to defining who you are. In the case of Alsace, the people living there were mostly a play ball of the bigger nations to the left and right and were rarely asked or listened to but Germany simply assumed they wanted to be and ought to be German whereas France assumed they wanted to be and ought to be French. the Alsatians themselves took it as it came and never put up any major resistance to either side, although they did and still do make underhand jokes. If you read Hansi for example you will see both France and Germany being ridiculed, often in the same sentence.

But there are other examples. Just in relatively recent times we have seen Yugoslavia dissolved in a series of wars. In a situation like that even people who don't really have strong feelings one way or the other are forced to take sides. I have recently been reading up on the Treaty of Trianon and the whole thing is far complexer than generally appreciated. You know, in terms of external people who haven't really a clue getting to decide who gets to be a proper nation and who has to be part of somebody else's nation and who doesn't count at all. These grievances don't disappear but actually emolden minorities from one generation to the next and make them angier and your powder keg is there waiting for a spark. See the rest of the history of the 20th Century. Not pretty. And then moving over to the former Ottoman empire and all the old quarrels and differences that have been simmering under the surface for the last 100 years. All those concerned about Syria etc should really be appreciating the miracle there haven't been many more wars. All this thanks to poor peace treaties post WW1.
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