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  #121  
Old 17.01.2017, 15:31
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Re: Vote on allowing easier citizenship for third generation

Just about everyone I've met have identified themselves by nationality, culture, language, community and family. Sure there have been a few vagabonds and drug addicts that seem to have forgotten. Otherwise, the concept of nationless identities of Europeans sounds more conceptual than reality.

Was that the concept and mindset behind Lebensraum?
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  #122  
Old 17.01.2017, 15:54
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Re: Vote on allowing easier citizenship for third generation

I see the concepts of nationality and having a culture as two different things.

As an expat, I see the Swiss nationality as an easier way of living in the gemeinde. For example, I pay 10 years worth of taxes without any say in how this money should be spent like more support to krippes,new school,new swimming pool,etc,etc. I dont need to be part of a club or something to have this rights. Contributing to the economy,not causing problems and speaking the language should be enough to get this right. Therefore, I see the nationality as more of a paper.

On the other hand, the specialties of Swiss culture,as much appealing or interesting as they are, doesn't have to be applied for each and every Swiss citizen. I don't think every Swiss jodles, hell not all of them even skies. When you are lactose intolerant can not eat cheese,are you not Swiss any more? When a natural born Swiss chooses to convert to Islam, is she/he is not Swiss anymore?

I am in favor of preserving every culture but paper nationalities shouldn't stop this.
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  #123  
Old 17.01.2017, 15:54
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Re: Vote on allowing easier citizenship for third generation

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[...] the concept and mindset behind Lebensraum?
Maybe... Grossraum + total state = lebensraum* (20th century)

*If I recall correctly, this term was coined in the 19th century, maybe earlier, I don't know.
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  #124  
Old 17.01.2017, 16:00
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Re: Vote on allowing easier citizenship for third generation

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Maybe... Grossraum + total state = lebensraum* (20th century)

*If I recall correctly, this term was coined in the 19th century, maybe earlier, I don't know.
It basically boils down to the idea that if a nation is too disorganized or backward to protect their lands then they are yours for the taking.

Ask the Indians of North America.

Germany didn't invent it.
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  #125  
Old 17.01.2017, 16:05
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Re: Vote on allowing easier citizenship for third generation

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It basically boils down to the idea that if a nation is too disorganized or backward to protect their lands then they are yours for the taking.

Ask the Indians of North America.

Germany didn't invent it.
Ok.
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  #126  
Old 17.01.2017, 16:09
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Re: Vote on allowing easier citizenship for third generation

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Depends what sort of people you're talking about.

I know a number of Sikhs who acquired Bristish nationaility and they absolutely have a huge commitment to Britain, enough to put most natural born Brits to shame. Several served in the armed forces and took bullets for Britain and that sort of thing. It's absolutely unacceptable to suggest they didn't deserve the citizenship.
I'm in full agreement.


The people to whom I refer have been South Africans and Australians who wanted to settle in Europe, stayed long enough in Britain to get citizenship, then left with a "cheers, mate, thanks". They've quite openly said they had no interest in the country at all, they just needed the passport.


They've got an absolute right, of course. Doesn't mean it doesn't piss me off.
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  #127  
Old 17.01.2017, 16:22
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Re: Vote on allowing easier citizenship for third generation

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They've got an absolute right, of course. Doesn't mean it doesn't piss me off.
Rather like all those Brits who move to Australia for a few (not many) sun-soaked years of fun, get the passport, then nick off back to Blighty (often with a wholesome Aussie sheila or bloke in tow). I can think of at least five Brits who've done just that.
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  #128  
Old 17.01.2017, 16:42
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Re: Vote on allowing easier citizenship for third generation

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Rather like all those Brits who move to Australia for a few (not many) sun-soaked years of fun, get the passport, then nick off back to Blighty (often with a wholesome Aussie sheila or bloke in tow). I can think of at least five Brits who've done just that.
Exactly like that!


For me, taking another nationality should actually mean something. It shouldn't be an automatic right after serving a certain amount of time, like getting a carriage clock on retirement day.


I seem to be in something of a minority with this point of view, though. Seems like most people see it just as a convenient piece of paper, a means to get a different coloured passport.
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  #129  
Old 17.01.2017, 19:49
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Re: Vote on allowing easier citizenship for third generation

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For me, taking another nationality should actually mean something. It shouldn't be an automatic right after serving a certain amount of time, like getting a carriage clock on retirement day.
Why not do the same for natural born citizens as well? After all the only reason they are citizens is an accident of birth.... Perhaps we should require everyone who wants citizenship regardless of birth to do two or three years public service in return.
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  #130  
Old 17.01.2017, 21:13
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Re: Vote on allowing easier citizenship for third generation

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I seem to be in something of a minority with this point of view, though. Seems like most people see it just as a convenient piece of paper, a means to get a different coloured passport.
I think this is becoming less and less true. The winds have changed and hard-line right wing views are becoming more accepted across Europe.

After the Durchsetzungsinitiative last Feb I applied for citizenship to make sure I could stay in the same country as my 2 young daughters. Far from a mere "convenience".
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  #131  
Old 17.01.2017, 23:34
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Re: Vote on allowing easier citizenship for third generation

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I am hovering between "why not" and "if I vote no am I implicitly approving that horrible SVP poster".

On balance I think the SVP have pushed me towards yes
There is an article in Blick here (German language) which claims some people are uncomfortable at voting "no" because they do not want to be associated with this poster and the supporting language!

Read my posts for the news before it happens!
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  #132  
Old 18.01.2017, 00:04
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Re: Vote on allowing easier citizenship for third generation

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There is an article in Blick here (German language) which claims some people are uncomfortable at voting "no" because they do not want to be associated with this poster and the supporting language!

Read my posts for the news before it happens!
BS. If they're too worried voting what they believe is correct and can argue for out of fear to support SVP we have to vote them out in the next elections!

But actually - even though Blick - most politicians don't let the SVP-filth influence them (did you actually read the article?).
So the only one who needs voting out next round is CVP-Mann Peter Hegglin. I'll remember him. Not for what he votes but why he changed his mind. Wimp.
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  #133  
Old 18.01.2017, 00:07
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Re: Vote on allowing easier citizenship for third generation

Actually, this was an interesting thread. I got a lot of input on perspectives I would probably not even have thought about.
So thanks folks
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  #134  
Old 18.01.2017, 00:18
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Re: Vote on allowing easier citizenship for third generation

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BS. If they're too worried voting what they believe is correct and can argue for out of fear to support SVP we have to vote them out in the next elections!

But actually - even though Blick - most politicians don't let the SVP-filth influence them (did you actually read the article?).
So the only one who needs voting out next round is CVP-Mann Peter Hegglin. I'll remember him. Not for what he votes but why he changed his mind. Wimp.
Did you read the geadline?
"CVP and FDP Councillors in naturalization dilemma in boat with the SVP Burka Poster"

I agree CVP-Mann Peter Hegglin was the only one actually named.
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  #135  
Old 18.01.2017, 00:28
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Re: Vote on allowing easier citizenship for third generation

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Did you read the geadline?
"CVP and FDP Councillors in naturalization dilemma in boat with the SVP Burka Poster"

I agree CVP-Mann Peter Hegglin was the only one actually named.
Yes, you see that is the trouble with Blick in general and Blick readers in particular: So many people only read the headlines. And then they go and form their opinion based on those

That's why I don't like the Blick quoted here
Which is btw. followed by 20 minutes.

The Blick is great for learning German - still, not only the headlines please - but once one speaks German there are better newspapers as I'm sure you know
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  #136  
Old 18.01.2017, 08:06
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Re: Vote on allowing easier citizenship for third generation

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Why not do the same for natural born citizens as well? After all the only reason they are citizens is an accident of birth.... Perhaps we should require everyone who wants citizenship regardless of birth to do two or three years public service in return.
We do.

It's called the army (men) and producing more Swiss the old-fashioned way (women).

Tom
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  #137  
Old 18.01.2017, 09:52
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Re: Vote on allowing easier citizenship for third generation

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We do.

It's called the army (men) and producing more Swiss the old-fashioned way (women).

Tom
Though that only applies until the mid-twenties, early thirties if you include the Militärpflichtersatz.
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  #138  
Old 18.01.2017, 10:53
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Re: Vote on allowing easier citizenship for third generation

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BS. If they're too worried voting what they believe is correct and can argue for out of fear to support SVP we have to vote them out in the next elections!

But actually - even though Blick - most politicians don't let the SVP-filth influence them (did you actually read the article?).
So the only one who needs voting out next round is CVP-Mann Peter Hegglin. I'll remember him. Not for what he votes but why he changed his mind. Wimp.
There are no wimps in politics, dear. There are only strategic moves - with shorter or longer investment returns.

I get what you wrote, just sayin'.
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  #139  
Old 18.01.2017, 10:57
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Re: Vote on allowing easier citizenship for third generation

I think they should raise the bar and burden of citizenship, and demand more of those applying, to determine true commitment to the well being of the society they want to claim equal part in.

Maybe even a mandatory bar/bat mitzvah, or a dream walk through the Alps to get earn their Swiss name.
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  #140  
Old 18.01.2017, 11:03
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Why not do the same for natural born citizens as well?
The clue is in the phrase: natural born citizens.


If you're already in a club, what is the point of making you join again?
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