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Old 12.02.2017, 21:00
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Corporate tax reform 3 rejected, except by the richest (in ZH)

Does this say all about the sentiments? On front page of Zurich section of NZZ there is a map of commune results, and the Golden Küste voted in favour, while (almost) all the other communes were against:
https://www.nzz.ch/zuerich/
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Old 13.02.2017, 09:26
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Re: Corporate tax reform 3 rejected, except by the richest (in ZH)

Speaking to some friends they rejected it for two main reasons:

1. There was a huge funding gap that wasn't adequately covered.
2. There was no incentive anywhere for the companies to actually benefit the employees with the money saved.

In any case i'm glad it failed. Corporate tax rates should not be a race to the bottom, but should reflect the true cost of a business to its locale, and the cost of the benefits it derives.
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Old 13.02.2017, 09:51
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Re: Corporate tax reform 3 rejected, except by the richest (in ZH)

I wonder what percentage of this forum households is directly dependent on the outcome of the new tax regime. In canton Vaud corporations in exchange for preferential treatment had to invest in local economy and create some jobs.
Now the Vaud politicians are saying "no panic", but Le Temps headline says it all:
Séisme sur l'Arc lémanique avec le «non» à la RIE III
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Old 13.02.2017, 10:05
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Re: Corporate tax reform 3 rejected, except by the richest (in ZH)

It was also such a complicated proposal that few understood it...
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Old 13.02.2017, 10:22
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Re: Corporate tax reform 3 rejected, except by the richest (in ZH)

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It was also such a complicated proposal that few understood it...
From discussions with neighbors and friends, this seems to be a common reason for the way they voted. While many did think that some kind of reform is needed, there seemed to be confusion over this proposal, some thought that the proponents did not do a good enough job explaining the potential outcome - and so voted 'no', seeing leaving things to the status quo as the safer option.
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Old 13.02.2017, 18:06
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Re: Corporate tax reform 3 rejected, except by the richest (in ZH)

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From discussions with neighbors and friends, this seems to be a common reason for the way they voted. While many did think that some kind of reform is needed, there seemed to be confusion over this proposal, some thought that the proponents did not do a good enough job explaining the potential outcome - and so voted 'no', seeing leaving things to the status quo as the safer option.
I don't quite agree with this analysis. There might have been come confusion about the consequences for the taxpayer, as there were conflicting statements on a possible tax deficit. However, as far as I have been discussing this vote with friends, the most common reason to vote "no" was the introduction of new loopholes for tax improvement which most people don't agree with.
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Old 13.02.2017, 20:34
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Re: Corporate tax reform 3 rejected, except by the richest (in ZH)

I talked yesterday about it with my Swiss friend. She voted against it.
One of the reason is that she thinks that now US will go down and CH could benefit from it and therefor it is not a good time currently for that kind of a change.
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Old 13.02.2017, 20:36
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Re: Corporate tax reform 3 rejected, except by the richest (in ZH)

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I talked yesterday about it with my Swiss friend. She voted against it.
We voted against it, as did pretty much everyone I know.

One of the few times I've voted with the Socialists over the years.

Tom
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Old 14.02.2017, 00:45
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Re: Corporate tax reform 3 rejected, except by the richest (in ZH)

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We voted against it, as did pretty much everyone I know.

One of the few times I've voted with the Socialists over the years.

Tom
well, i guess everybody makes the wrong vote now and then
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Old 14.02.2017, 08:02
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Re: Corporate tax reform 3 rejected, except by the richest (in ZH)

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I talked yesterday about it with my Swiss friend. She voted against it.
One of the reason is that she thinks that now US will go down and CH could benefit from it and therefor it is not a good time currently for that kind of a change.
And this is why I like living here. The Swiss in general actually give some serious thought to how they vote, unlike the Brits (disclosure - I am one) who'll vote for anything they see written in big letters on the side of a bus.
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Old 14.02.2017, 09:25
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Re: Corporate tax reform 3 rejected, except by the richest (in ZH)

Same here with my friends, they are a bit tired of listening to "if we don't reduce our taxes, companies will leave CH". I agree with them, I think there are other reasons why companies choose CH for, let's say, a European hub: availability of qualified workforce, very nice country to live (and to send expats), stability, etc."

This paragraph on Swissinfo summarizes their feelings quite well:

"Opponents argue that taxpayers, and particularly the middle class, will ultimately foot the bill if the strategy fails and leads to a multi-million franc shortfall in revenue, as was the case with a previous corporate tax reform voted on in 2008."

Source: http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/february...entum/42925530
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Old 14.02.2017, 10:16
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Re: Corporate tax reform 3 rejected, except by the richest (in ZH)

So telling big business to F off if they want even lower tax rates seems to be the one thing that unites Left and Right on this forum.

Fancy that.
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Old 14.02.2017, 10:20
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Re: Corporate tax reform 3 rejected, except by the richest (in ZH)

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We voted against it, as did pretty much everyone I know.

One of the few times I've voted with the Socialists over the years.

Tom
Just shows a stopped clock can be right occesionally.

Rob
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Old 14.02.2017, 21:25
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Re: Corporate tax reform 3 rejected, except by the richest (in ZH)

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Same here with my friends, they are a bit tired of listening to "if we don't reduce our taxes, companies will leave CH". I agree with them, I think there are other reasons why companies choose CH for, let's say, a European hub: availability of qualified workforce, very nice country to live (and to send expats), stability, etc."
The nice office building between Lausanne and Geneva left by Yahoo in 2013 is still being advertised.
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Old 15.02.2017, 10:29
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Re: Corporate tax reform 3 rejected, except by the richest (in ZH)

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The nice office building between Lausanne and Geneva left by Yahoo in 2013 is still being advertised.
Yahoo moved there in 2008 or so, primarily due to special tax breaks granted during the first years. Once they wore out Yahoo moved on.

Which is just one more example of the uselessness of special tax breaks in the quest of motivating multinationals to settle here long-term.
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Old 15.02.2017, 17:36
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Re: Corporate tax reform 3 rejected, except by the richest (in ZH)

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Yahoo moved there in 2008 or so, primarily due to special tax breaks granted during the first years. Once they wore out Yahoo moved on.

Which is just one more example of the uselessness of special tax breaks in the quest of motivating multinationals to settle here long-term.
Exactly why i roll my eyes whenever i'm told that low tax rates attracts business. Any business that is here only because of the low tax rates is not the kind of business likely to be the type that will have a lasting positive impact.
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Old 15.02.2017, 22:32
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Re: Corporate tax reform 3 rejected, except by the richest (in ZH)

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Exactly why i roll my eyes whenever i'm told that low tax rates attracts business. Any business that is here only because of the low tax rates is not the kind of business likely to be the type that will have a lasting positive impact.
Economiesuisse materials, 2013
Pg.8:
Quote:
2007 generierten multinationale Unternehmen in der Schweiz rund ein Drittel des Bruttoinlandsprodukts (BIP). 14 Prozent des Bruttoinlandsprodukts stammen aus der Tätigkeit ausländischer Konzerne, 22 Prozent des BIP generieren schweizerische multinationale Unternehmen.
[...]
In bestimmten Regionen ist die wirtschaftliche Bedeutung multinationaler Unternehmen besonders ausgeprägt. So generieren sie in den Kantonen Genf und Waadt rund 40 Prozent des BIP.
[...]
Direkt und indirekt – inkl. Zuliefer- und Dienstleistungsbetrieben – beschäftigen sie über die Hälfte aller Angestellten in der Schweiz.
[...]
In den letzten zehn Jahren wurde jeder zweite neue Arbeitsplatz in der Schweiz von multinationalen Konzernen geschaffen (in der Region um den Genfersee sind es sogar zwei Drittel aller neuen Arbeitsplätze).
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Old 16.02.2017, 10:27
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Re: Corporate tax reform 3 rejected, except by the richest (in ZH)

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Economiesuisse materials, 2013
Pg.8:
Quote:
2007 generierten multinationale Unternehmen in der Schweiz rund ein Drittel des Bruttoinlandsprodukts (BIP). 14 Prozent des Bruttoinlandsprodukts stammen aus der Tätigkeit ausländischer Konzerne, 22 Prozent des BIP generieren schweizerische multinationale Unternehmen.
[...]
In bestimmten Regionen ist die wirtschaftliche Bedeutung multinationaler Unternehmen besonders ausgeprägt. So generieren sie in den Kantonen Genf und Waadt rund 40 Prozent des BIP.
[...]
Direkt und indirekt – inkl. Zuliefer- und Dienstleistungsbetrieben – beschäftigen sie über die Hälfte aller Angestellten in der Schweiz.
[...]
In den letzten zehn Jahren wurde jeder zweite neue Arbeitsplatz in der Schweiz von multinationalen Konzernen geschaffen (in der Region um den Genfersee sind es sogar zwei Drittel aller neuen Arbeitsplätze).
The number of jobs by multinationals is meaningless, much of that business must happen here due its very nature. Shell, to pick one arbitrary example, simply will not sell fuel to Swiss retail customers unless they have a large local presence. If SWISS airlines moved away from Kloten others would gladly seize the opportunity and fill the gap, TYVM. Nobody would consider Migros a multinational in this context, yet they are because Migros generates a tiny fraction of their revenue abroad.

Unless the presence of foreign multinationals companies produces a fair profit for both sides there's zero reason to welcome them in the first place. That includes them paying their fair share and other dues, the purpose of the proposed Patentbox is exactly the opposite, especially combined with the illusionary interest on equity deduction. The fact that hardly any foreign multinational has a significant number of apprentices is a strong indicator that they're not interested.

Generating whichever GDP (BIP) share is irrelevant if the gains flow elsewhere as the business itself would be conducted by locals if the foreign company weren't here. The re-exportation of profits is a core aspect of foreign multinationals moving operations or their regional central head office as at the end of the day the money will flow back to its (mostly foreign) shareholders.

Oh btw, the paper by Swissholdings, quoted by Economiesuisse with their number of jobs affected, says that foreign multinationals have 430k employees here, that's just 10% of all jobs. And as shown above for a good many the applicable tax regime is irrelevant just as long as local and foreign companies are treated the same way.

But of course presenting fair numbers would make it much less impressive. That makes the Economiesuiesse paper effectively a lie.
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Old 16.02.2017, 10:58
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Re: Corporate tax reform 3 rejected, except by the richest (in ZH)

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Exactly why i roll my eyes whenever i'm told that low tax rates attracts business. Any business that is here only because of the low tax rates is not the kind of business likely to be the type that will have a lasting positive impact.
Indeed. Bulgaria and Hungary have the lowest corporate tax rates in EU (10% and 9% respectively). Its not exactly a flood of trillions of FDI that they are struggling with. Tax rate is just one of the many variables corporates consider and if its the only one, then its probably not the type of corporate one wants in their country anyways.
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Old 16.02.2017, 11:12
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Re: Corporate tax reform 3 rejected, except by the richest (in ZH)

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Same here with my friends, they are a bit tired of listening to "if we don't reduce our taxes, companies will leave CH". I agree with them, I think there are other reasons why companies choose CH for, let's say, a European hub: availability of qualified workforce, very nice country to live (and to send expats), stability, etc."
Yes. I think the days where the Swiss blindly followed whatever the "economic elite" said are long over.

Too many things have happened in the last decade or so to undermine the supposed elite's credibility. And despite the constant "threats", Switzerland overall still seems to fare relatively well, economically, compared to most of the world, so I guess many are just not impressed by the constant threats anymore.


I didn't vote on this one cause I literally couldn't decide whether it was a good or bad thing. I'm usually voting pro on anything that I consider protective of the economy, whatever shape or form that may take, but on this one I wasn't convinced.
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