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  #41  
Old 31.05.2017, 12:21
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Re: The " neutral" Switzerland

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Now they are talking about buying 70 jet fighters ( 14 Milliarde CHF ) and ground to air missiles. Sounds like someone wants to do some good business or Trump has been whispering in their ears. All this in the name of " neutrality "!
So a neutral country can't buy hardware to defend themselves with? You probably have the least logical mind on this forum. Frightening.

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I'm surprised they want manned fighter planes instead of drones. Perhaps no drones of sufficient capability are for sale?

My gut feeling is that manned fighter planes are a thing of the past and will be grandfathered by drones. Training up and maintaining a fighter pilot is a very lengthy and expensive exercise. It is daft to put all the squishy meatbag in the nose of the thing that is going to get shot at. Put the meatbag in a heavily fortified bunker and let him fly the jet remotely. Doing so will also remove the requirement for all the life support and cockpit instrumentation in the plane itself.
There is no drone that can currently out-dogfight or out-maneuver a human-piloted fighter jet... that should be really, really obvious.
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  #42  
Old 31.05.2017, 12:23
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Re: The " neutral" Switzerland

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imagine what all would happen if the US would stop the GPS satellites...
Imagine what would happen if someone managed to interfere with the time source that the sattelites use.

At the heart of the GPS system is the equivalent of a metronome (more like a series of them in various hardened bunkers spread around the world).

If you managed to interfere with that you would cause a great deal of havoc, not just military, but also in commercial and private aviation, personal GPSs, and pretty much every trading exchange worldwide (most exchanges and trading systems use a GPS time signal as their reference, or at least they used to).

Imagine much of the world going back to the noon gun at Greenwich for a pulse.
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  #43  
Old 31.05.2017, 17:56
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Re: The " neutral" Switzerland

They had an " Army "?! Maybe similar to dads army.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eLEhGWIdWag
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No, the allied forces saved Switzerland last time.

An invasion and occupation of Switzerland was very much on the agenda.

The Swiss having an army just meant it would have taken longer.
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  #44  
Old 31.05.2017, 17:59
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Re: The " neutral" Switzerland

What defend?From Kim Jong ( alias King Kong )? Its just business thats all. More taxpayers money being wasted
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So a neutral country can't buy hardware to defend themselves with? You probably have the least logical mind on this forum. Frightening.



There is no drone that can currently out-dogfight or out-maneuver a human-piloted fighter jet... that should be really, really obvious.
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  #45  
Old 31.05.2017, 18:17
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Re: The " neutral" Switzerland

Neutral does not mean you have no right to arm yourself for defence.


The updating of all military equipment is in order to maintain a modern defensive force to deter other nations from attempting to invade, nothing more.
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  #46  
Old 31.05.2017, 18:19
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Re: The " neutral" Switzerland

Who is going to invade? USA? Give it a rest




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1KeAZho8TKo
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Neutral does not mean you have no right to arm yourself for defence.


The updating of all military equipment is in order to maintain a modern defensive force to deter other nations from attempting to invade, nothing more.
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  #47  
Old 31.05.2017, 18:35
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Re: The " neutral" Switzerland

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They had an " Army "?! Maybe similar to dads army.
You are showing your lack of knowledge with such a stupid comment.


Operation Tannenbaum was the name given to the planned Nazi invasion of Switzerland, however due to Switzerland's topography a blitzkrieg styled assault was out of the question. Further to that, the Swiss had over 600,000 men prepared to defend their nation which meant German forces would have been required to be removed from other theatres just to make up the required number for an invasion attempt, being forced to fight in the mountains would have also limited the use of the Luftwaffe and tank regiments leaving the Wehrmacht to face trained mountain troops in specially built defensive mountain forts. It was decided that German losses would have been too great and the time too long...hence just go around it.
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  #48  
Old 31.05.2017, 21:07
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Re: The " neutral" Switzerland

Indeed, my dad served throughout the Mob (mobilisation/prescription) - I still have hiw army cycle (weighs a ton, no gears, pedalo brakes - they did all the major alpine passes on those, his bayonet and 2 Swiss army knives (bakelite I think). My mum served in the womens' corps too.

The whole region here near the French border was covered with forts and those toblerone concrete lines- to stop Germans entering via France. Many have gone, but quite a few are still here if you know how to look.I have many photos- and also photos of Senior German army officers at the border near our house- smirking - indicating that if they wanted to cross- little Swiss could do.
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  #49  
Old 11.06.2017, 19:25
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Re: The " neutral" Switzerland

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The principle of the Swiss neutrality is: As long as you do not attack our own country and territory or use our country and territory to attack others we do not care much what you do. If you do, we fight back and will defend our country from any invading forces. Sorry, to any British, Austrian, Russian, French etc. soldier that you now have to go either through Italy or Germany if you wish to attack each other.
Didn't the Germans send troops to Italy THROUGH Switzerland? I think that was a big reason why they ultimately decided not to invade Switzerland, because the Swiss threatened to blow up the tunnels that went through the Alps. Then again, other people on this board know a LOT more about what Switzerland did in WWII than I did, so please correct me if I am wrong.
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  #50  
Old 11.06.2017, 20:41
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Re: The " neutral" Switzerland

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Didn't the Germans send troops to Italy THROUGH Switzerland? I think that was a big reason why they ultimately decided not to invade Switzerland, because the Swiss threatened to blow up the tunnels that went through the Alps. Then again, other people on this board know a LOT more about what Switzerland did in WWII than I did, so please correct me if I am wrong.
From what I know, they transported sealed trains with troops and material through Switzerland, but afaik Switzerland only allowed that during the early war years after Germany basically surrounded Switzerland completely, and all option we had was either limited cooperation (while still managing to harbour and safe many refugees) or getting attacked.

We knew that in case of a war we wouldn't be able to stop the Germans, but we could make their invasion more costly than what it would have been worth to them by offering limited cooperation.

Yes, Switzerland profited from being neutral in WW2, but the alternative would have been just to get crushed. The Bundesrat only gave as much concessions to the Nazis as he had to. When the war fortune turned, Switzerland took a more hostile stand, as much as was possible.

Different to WW1/Prior to WW1, there were hardly any supporters in the German speaking areas for Germany/the Nazis. Swiss strongly fought for their independence by being ready to hurt the Nazis more than what they would have gained from an attack (obviously, all bridges, tunnels etc. were mined)

The whole concept of the Reduit would have meant that a brutal fight in the mountainous areas would bleed out the Nazi invaders, with all the industrial and transport hubs being blown to pieces, making them worthless.

There were clear faults - but those happened mostly after WW2 (for example the banks clearly not doing enough to find relatives of those holding bank accounts etc.) - but during WW2, the Swiss tactic was that of making Switzerland well defended so an invasion would be more costly than bringing in return.
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  #51  
Old 12.06.2017, 10:01
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Re: The " neutral" Switzerland

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From what I know, they transported sealed trains with troops and material through Switzerland, but afaik Switzerland only allowed that during the early war years after Germany basically surrounded Switzerland completely, and all option we had was either limited cooperation (while still managing to harbour and safe many refugees) or getting attacked.

We knew that in case of a war we wouldn't be able to stop the Germans, but we could make their invasion more costly than what it would have been worth to them by offering limited cooperation.

Yes, Switzerland profited from being neutral in WW2, but the alternative would have been just to get crushed. The Bundesrat only gave as much concessions to the Nazis as he had to. When the war fortune turned, Switzerland took a more hostile stand, as much as was possible.

Different to WW1/Prior to WW1, there were hardly any supporters in the German speaking areas for Germany/the Nazis. Swiss strongly fought for their independence by being ready to hurt the Nazis more than what they would have gained from an attack (obviously, all bridges, tunnels etc. were mined)

The whole concept of the Reduit would have meant that a brutal fight in the mountainous areas would bleed out the Nazi invaders, with all the industrial and transport hubs being blown to pieces, making them worthless.

There were clear faults - but those happened mostly after WW2 (for example the banks clearly not doing enough to find relatives of those holding bank accounts etc.) - but during WW2, the Swiss tactic was that of making Switzerland well defended so an invasion would be more costly than bringing in return.
Actually they allowed it all through the war, the reinforcements at Monte Casino came via Switzerland, the Eidgenossen charged the Reich 350 Franks per soldier and they were not going to let all that lovely lucre go to waste. Tannenbaum was only a wargame scenario in the drawer, in reality the Swiss were very close to joining the Reich on their own accord, the Gauleiter system was already in place as were all the prerequisites for Anschluß right down to registering the Jewish community ready for deportation, if you get a chance visit http://www.festung.ch/index.php?id=209 for a jaw-dropping expose on this topic.
Before the war Switzerland had a valid reason to believe that France was poised to invade and had asked Germany for assistance, Germany supplied arms and "technical advisers" to the pro German Swiss government.
Almost single handedly General Henri Guisan was able to convince the government that is was possible to appose a German "liberation" with the Réduit strategy:
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Die Entschlossenheit von Regierung und Volk, die schweizerische Neutralität gegen jeden Angreifer zu verteidigen, steht bisher ausser Zweifel.
There is one story that I love and I have heard it a few times so I will take it as truth: On the border between Das Reich and the CHians the Germans being Germans were teasing their Swiss counterparts by putting a foot over the border and generally being like Nyah nyah nana nyah ya! A German officer shouted: "What would you do with your 500.000 soldiers if we marched over with a million?" "Shoot twice and go home" came the laconic reply.
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  #52  
Old 12.06.2017, 10:08
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Re: The " neutral" Switzerland

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if you get a chance visit http://www.festung.ch/index.php?id=209 for a jaw-dropping expose on this topic.
Thanks for this - looks fascinating.

(And I see there is an English audioguide for my monoglot visitors.)
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  #53  
Old 12.06.2017, 10:30
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Re: The " neutral" Switzerland

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"What would you do with your 500.000 soldiers if we marched over with a million?" "Shoot twice and go home" came the laconic reply.
That is such typically Swiss humour that I wouldn't be surprised at all if it were true.
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  #54  
Old 12.06.2017, 10:36
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Re: The " neutral" Switzerland

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(while still managing to harbour and safe many refugees)
You don't really want to go into that specific topic, do you? Let's be honest: The Swiss record when it comes to refugees was less than stellar. The federal government forced the cantonal police to send jews back to Germany into certain death. The exceptional police commanders who ignored the federal laws and rescued people lost their jobs. Mr Grüniger saved a thousand people, lost his job and was for the rest of his life not able to find a job as everyone avoided the "criminal": http://www.woz.ch/1404/akte-gruening...hr-der-beamten
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Old 12.06.2017, 10:52
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Re: The " neutral" Switzerland

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The Swiss record when it comes to refugees was less than stellar.
Yet better than anywhere else.

Tom
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  #56  
Old 12.06.2017, 11:01
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Re: The " neutral" Switzerland

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You don't really want to go into that specific topic, do you? Let's be honest: The Swiss record when it comes to refugees was less than stellar.
Look up the results of the conference at Evian in 1938. And let's not even mention Germany's role in all that.
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Before the war Switzerland had a valid reason to believe that France was poised to invade and had asked Germany for assistance, Germany supplied arms and "technical advisers" to the pro German Swiss government.
The German population in Switzerland fell from 220k in 1910 to 160k in 1920, down to about 120k in 1930, 70k in 1941, 55k in 1950 (it didn't get significantly above 100k until after the millenium). With that said, what you say would require additional references. Are you perhaps confusing WW1 (when General Wille, a German, was commander of the Swiss army) with WW2?

ETA:
In 1939 the French and Swiss "Generalstab" (central commands?) met to talk about and prevent a potential German invasion (the German could have bypassed the Maginot line by using Swiss territory) (a fact used by the Germans to pressurise Switzerland when they found out in 1940). This doesn't really support the notion of fear of an invasion by France.

Last edited by Urs Max; 12.06.2017 at 11:33.
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  #57  
Old 12.06.2017, 13:00
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Re: The " neutral" Switzerland

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Look up the results of the conference at Evian in 1938. And let's not even mention Germany's role in all that.
The German population in Switzerland fell from 220k in 1910 to 160k in 1920, down to about 120k in 1930, 70k in 1941, 55k in 1950 (it didn't get significantly above 100k until after the millenium). With that said, what you say would require additional references. Are you perhaps confusing WW1 (when General Wille, a German, was commander of the Swiss army) with WW2?

ETA:
In 1939 the French and Swiss "Generalstab" (central commands?) met to talk about and prevent a potential German invasion (the German could have bypassed the Maginot line by using Swiss territory) (a fact used by the Germans to pressurise Switzerland when they found out in 1940). This doesn't really support the notion of fear of an invasion by France.
I got the information from the museum in Heldberg, I´ll see what I can dig up.
Actually the Germans knew that bypassing the maginot line via Switzerland was the less favourable option due to the bottleneck of mountains, instead they went through neutral Belgium.

Last edited by slammer; 12.06.2017 at 13:34.
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  #58  
Old 12.06.2017, 13:29
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Re: The " neutral" Switzerland

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Indeed, my dad served throughout the Mob (mobilisation/prescription) - I still have hiw army cycle (weighs a ton, no gears, pedalo brakes - they did all the major alpine passes on those, his bayonet and 2 Swiss army knives (bakelite I think). My mum served in the womens' corps too.

The whole region here near the French border was covered with forts and those toblerone concrete lines- to stop Germans entering via France. Many have gone, but quite a few are still here if you know how to look.I have many photos- and also photos of Senior German army officers at the border near our house- smirking - indicating that if they wanted to cross- little Swiss could do.
Want to see the pictures.
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Old 12.06.2017, 15:26
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Re: The " neutral" Switzerland

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I got the information from the museum in Heldberg, I´ll see what I can dig up.
Look for "Plan H".
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Old 12.06.2017, 15:27
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Re: The " neutral" Switzerland

Got 100s of both mum and dad serving - pictures of what- the bike? It is in the barn.

Will look out for last year's Romandie Magazine 'Passé Simple' which had a very interesting article about the regular 'teasing' at the Swiss-French borders by high ranking SS officers in occupied France. Went for a walk and circular drive with guests from Calif andf New Mexico- and they were amazed to see all the 'toblerone' concrete defences all along the border- that were to stop German invasion from occupied France. Lots have disappeared due to new roads, etc- but miles upon miles remain.

http://www.toblerones.ch/index.php/welcome

a part of the Toblerone line which is not in my area- but only link I could find in English. Most are in Vaud but also a lot in Neuchâtel and Jura region.
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