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  #21  
Old 05.11.2018, 11:36
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Re: Political movement in the Jura

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in exchange for Vaud
Hi Odile,
Wondering a bit about this part.
You say Jura (kanton) was given to Bern (kanton?) in exchange for Vaud (kanton?).
"In exchange" between whom? Who did Bern give Vaud away to?
And how is it that Jura is today an individual kanton, if it was given to Bern back then?

Thank you for the CHistory lesson.

Last edited by dbucar; 05.11.2018 at 13:56.
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  #22  
Old 05.11.2018, 12:00
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Re: Political movement in the Jura

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"In exchange" between whom? Who did Bern give Vaud away to?
And how is it that Jura is today an individual kanton, if it was given to Bern back then?
The Vaud was given to the new founded canton Vaud. Canton Bern also lost territory to the new founded canton Aargau. Canton Jura was founded after lot of struggles and deciding popular vote 1979.
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  #23  
Old 05.11.2018, 13:30
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Re: Political movement in the Jura

It's complicated back later too lovely and sunny here for history
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  #24  
Old 05.11.2018, 15:52
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Re: Political movement in the Jura

As said, it is very complicated, and goes back a loooong way. Perhaps hard to imagine that the outer borders of Switzerland only go back just over 200 years- to the Vienna Treaty in 1815. The region now called Vaud- was very important in Roman times- as the thoroughfare from St Bernard to the rest of Europe. It was then part of Burgundy and then part of Savoy- and those called 'Swiss' at the time, more or less the Bernese- gave Vaud a very hard time- with land ransacked and mass murders over a long period of time- and Catholicism banned by the said Bernese too for those who survived the massacres!

It was only at the time of the French Revolution that Vaud was given proper independent status- and at the Congress of Vienna, in 1815- became part of Switzerland as an independent Swiss Canton. To put it mildly, the Bernese were not so happy - and were given the Jura part of Basel in compensation. Which they were not happy about as it was a poor area, with difficult to farm meagre lands - unlike the rich and fertile soils of Vaud- but ... they took it, and settled it, just like the Far West. Farmers arrived and took over lands and all artisan work- imposed Berntütsch overnight, in politics, Church and schools - and imposed the Protestant religion on the Catholic Jura.

To say the Jurassien were not happy- especially as they were not asked in any way, shape or form for their opinion - is a massive understatement. And still, the rancour and bitterness endures. It took many years of fighting for the north Jura to be finally given independent CAnton status. Moûtiers remained Bernese, but only just - and kept its Roman/French culture and language- and only recently voted to join the Jura Canton - on the second vote- which has not been overturned by a Judge on very spurious grounds.

There will be trouble, I think.

Last edited by Odile; 05.11.2018 at 16:35.
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  #25  
Old 05.11.2018, 16:22
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Re: Political movement in the Jura

BTW I am currently doing research about my forebears - and it is very sensitive and hitting a bit of a brick wall.

My dad's family were Huguenots from Eastern France, who escaped persecution for their Protestantism. Many went to London, some to the Cape - and most of the rest walked over to the Basel/Jura region - which was Catholic- but tolerant.

Well tolerant, only if - only if the Huguenots and the Menonites- who escaped the Protestant Bernese because they were a different kind of Protestant - to Catholic Basel - go figure! But they had to farm the uplands, the poor and meagre lands above 1000m, in exchange for their freedom of religion- and were not allowed to join the artisans' Guilds and other professions.

I am trying to figure how my Protestant Huguenot forebears turned out to be, some generations later- staunch Catholics. Was it piecemeal, for marriage, or for a better job- or was there a, or a couple of generations, where this happened quickly- in order to 'integrate' and as such, be free of the above described restrictions? It's a mistery.

For me- a source of interest as my grandfather and father's family were part of a tiny minority of Catholics in Neuchâtel when they emigrated - and it was a massive scandal when my Bourgeois, divorced with one child, Protestant mother- married my Catholic father in the mid 40s ... Most Catholics in the region had arranged marriages at the time, to ensure Catholicism endured. It is only the arrival of Italians, Spanish and Portuguese which finally ensured that - with NE Canton being currently about 50/50 - and the Catholic and Protestant Churches obliged to work together in an eucomenical (sp?) way to try and keep numbers up - especially as religious tax here is optional.

To say I am of Huguenot Catholic roots- always seems totally bizarre (and perhaps the reason I have never been religious
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  #26  
Old 05.11.2018, 16:27
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Re: Political movement in the Jura

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As said, it is very complicated, and goes back a loooong way. Perhaps hard to imagine that the outer borders of Switzerland only go back just over 100 years- to the Vienna Treaty in 1815.
1815 is more than 200 years ago.

And most of the outer borders have been the same since 1515 or so.

Tom
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Old 05.11.2018, 16:38
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Re: Political movement in the Jura

Oooops corrected- yes over 200 years ago.


As for the second part- not at all. I subscribe to a wonderful History magazine, in French, called 'Passé Simple' - the last page always includes a map of the Swiss territory and surrounding areas- and the movements are vast. As said, Vaud belonged to Burgundy (as did Neuchâtel) and Savoy - and Neuchâtel then was a Prussian Principality until 1815- and only became fully Swiss in 1848. The map from 1601 shows the whole Ticino area being part of Habsburg Spain, as the Duchy of Milan.
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  #28  
Old 05.11.2018, 16:40
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Re: Political movement in the Jura

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The word 'Jura' is not so easy to grasp hey. It is a Scottish Island, A French Departement, A Swiss Canton, and a whole chain of moutains, from France to Germany over the whole NW border of Switzerland - and covers many Cantons apart from the Jura ... over GE, VD, NE, BE, BL ...with lots and lots of parks ...?!?
And more than any of this, it's a great whisky.
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  #29  
Old 05.11.2018, 16:48
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Re: Political movement in the Jura

It is that.
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  #30  
Old 05.11.2018, 16:53
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Re: Political movement in the Jura

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The map from 1601 shows the whole Ticino area being part of Habsburg Spain, as the Duchy of Milan.
Then the map is wrong.

"Uri conquered the Leventina Valley in 1440. In a second conquest Uri, Schwyz and Nidwalden gained the town of Bellinzona and the Riviera in 1500. Some of the land and Bellinzona itself were previously annexed by Uri in 1419 but lost again in 1422. The third conquest was fought by troops from the entire Confederation (at that time constituted by 12 cantons). In 1512 Locarno, the Maggia Valley, Lugano and Mendrisio were annexed."

And Bern took Vaud in 1525.

Tom
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  #31  
Old 05.11.2018, 17:35
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Re: Political movement in the Jura

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then was a Prussian Principality until 1815- and only became fully Swiss in 1848. The map from 1601 shows the whole Ticino area being part of Habsburg Spain, as the Duchy of Milan.
That map must be from 1401 or 1501. With the battle of Marignano things where mostly settled. The biggest change in that corner of Switzerland was the loss of the Veltlin 1797.

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ennetb...e_Vogteien.png
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  #32  
Old 05.11.2018, 18:12
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Re: Political movement in the Jura

It somewhat depends on how you define "Switzerland" before the 19th century. If you're talking of sovereign areas there were "13 Orte" (13 sites/places) only that later turned into Cantons, they direclty encompassed less than half of today's Switzerland.

Some of the other areas were ruled over by a single one or jointily by multiple of those "13 Orte" (Thurgau, Ticino, Vaud, parts of the Aargau); indirectly part of what would become CH but anything but sovereign.

Still others were just associated to different degrees and not always without interruption (Grisons, Geneva, Basel, Valais, Mulhouse, most of St.Gallen as that was owned by the cloister(word?) of St.Gallen and ruled over by the lord abbot until about 1800, probably until 1805/15).

And then you had the Jura mountains, Fribourg Neuchâtel in particular, which was Prussian territory during the 17th century, ruled over by other European nobility before that.
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  #33  
Old 05.11.2018, 18:18
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Re: Political movement in the Jura

... and Neuchâtel, Prussian until 1848, and Swiss associate from 1815.
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Old 05.11.2018, 18:19
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Re: Political movement in the Jura

That's what I meant above, not Fribourg, thanks. Took the liberty to correct that.


In short, Switzerland was far from "made" by the battle near Marignano in 1515, say, as is so often claimed.
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  #35  
Old 05.11.2018, 23:19
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Re: Political movement in the Jura

Massive demo planned for Friday.
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  #36  
Old 10.11.2018, 19:53
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Re: Political movement in the Jura

This was peacefully attended by, 5000, say the Bernese, and 10.000, say the Jurassiens - anyhow, a LOT of people for a small town. Wish I could have been there. They are not going to take this lying down ... for sure.
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Old 10.11.2018, 21:42
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Re: Political movement in the Jura

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They are not going to take this lying down ... for sure.
Doggy style, then?

Tom
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  #38  
Old 10.11.2018, 22:15
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Re: Political movement in the Jura

You sound a bit frustrated Tom. Maybe some cookies will help:

https://www.amazon.de/dp/B075XL6ZCV/...wfacebo0e31-21
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  #39  
Old 11.11.2018, 07:27
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Re: Political movement in the Jura

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BTW I am currently doing research about my forebears - and it is very sensitive and hitting a bit of a brick wall.

.....

I am trying to figure how my Protestant Huguenot forebears turned out to be, some generations later- staunch Catholics. Was it piecemeal, for marriage, or for a better job- or was there a, or a couple of generations, where this happened quickly- in order to 'integrate' and as such, be free of the above described restrictions? It's a mistery.

.....
Misery + Mystery? Freudian slip, perhaps.
BTW incredible thread - EF at it's best. Thanks Odile.
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  #40  
Old 11.11.2018, 10:07
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Re: Political movement in the Jura

Ah yes Freudian slip perhaps- because anyone who has been caught in religious wars, even 'just' familial ones - know it can be a misery.

On both sides of our families, OH and I are grateful that it has freed us from affiliation to any, with about 7 different Christian denominations + 1 significant other between us.
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