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  #21  
Old 19.07.2017, 23:50
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Re: Naturalization - a complete protocol of a Kafkaesque sharade

Noting her point that those who interviewed her required her to know things that young people would never know, but would google when they needed to find it out, make me think it would be interesting to know the ages of the people who interviewed her.

Maybe that's the issue with naturalisation in general, maybe younger people, who after all, are the ones who long term will be living with the decision, should be making it. Or maybe you should in general be examined by your own age group if you are applying as an adult, at any rate.
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  #22  
Old 20.07.2017, 00:31
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Re: Naturalization - a complete protocol of a Kafkaesque sharade

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What would you say is typically Swiss?
Riding motorcycles (all my Swiss friends ride).

Hockey.

Curling.

Tom
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  #23  
Old 20.07.2017, 06:55
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Re: Naturalization - a complete protocol of a Kafkaesque sharade

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Maybe that's the issue with naturalisation in general, maybe younger people, who after all, are the ones who long term will be living with the decision, should be making it.
I'm pretty sure the losers in the Brexit vote put forward the same rationale...
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  #24  
Old 20.07.2017, 09:14
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Re: Naturalization - a complete protocol of a Kafkaesque sharade

It didn't help her that her parents were denied, she lives at home, and is in debt.

Tom
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  #25  
Old 20.07.2017, 10:54
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Re: Naturalization - a complete protocol of a Kafkaesque sharade

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I'm pretty sure the losers in the Brexit vote put forward the same rationale...
True!
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Old 20.07.2017, 11:00
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Re: Naturalization - a complete protocol of a Kafkaesque sharade

If they were to ask any Swiss millennial the same questions, I'm sure they would have received pretty similar answers.
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  #27  
Old 20.07.2017, 11:13
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Re: Naturalization - a complete protocol of a Kafkaesque sharade

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It didn't help her that her parents were denied, she lives at home, and is in debt.

Tom
... as usual we do not know all the facts- do we. So yes, being in debt would weigh heavily in the decision- as she is much more likely to become a 'burden' on the local tax payers.

One Albanian guy here, a builder with a local contractor, would have been a prime candidate for naturalisation. Well liked and respected - but it has turned out he is a gambler and has debts all over the place- including many of the builder's clients (including me- he is a charmer and I fell for it. It was only a couple of 100, and I will just let it go) ... Currently as this is now known by all (not my debt, I've kept quiet about it- I chose to lend him some money, my problem) - there is no way he would 'pass'.
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Old 20.07.2017, 11:31
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Re: Naturalization - a complete protocol of a Kafkaesque sharade

A friend of mine was refused naturalization in Zug last year. German parents, but born and grew up here, Swiss schools, University, heavily involved in his Uni fraternity etc. Speaks perfect dialect, but was initially refused on the grounds he didn't have a "proper" job with a decent salary. He has a Masters in history, but was struggling to find full-time employment and was working as an assistant at a law firm, if memory serves me right. His wife, girlfriend at the time, has a doctorate in law and is a bit of a high flyer, so was earning plenty for both of them.
He re-applied and it was granted just last month, butI don't think his employment circumstances have changed. Maybe the fact they are now married and have a son has something to do with it, which is ridiculous if so.
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  #29  
Old 20.07.2017, 11:46
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Re: Naturalization - a complete protocol of a Kafkaesque sharade

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... as usual we do not know all the facts- do we.
Well, that's what it said in the original, German language article.

Tom
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  #30  
Old 20.07.2017, 11:49
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Re: Naturalization - a complete protocol of a Kafkaesque sharade

In Buchs, Aldi and Migros are located in an industrial area on the edge of the town, near the Autobahn. Coop on the otherhand is located in the town center. Why on earth would anyone prefer to shop in Aldi when they have a Coop much closer?
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  #31  
Old 20.07.2017, 12:35
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Re: Naturalization - a complete protocol of a Kafkaesque sharade

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... as usual we do not know all the facts- do we. So yes, being in debt would weigh heavily in the decision- as she is much more likely to become a 'burden' on the local tax payers.

One Albanian guy here, a builder with a local contractor, would have been a prime candidate for naturalisation. Well liked and respected - but it has turned out he is a gambler and has debts all over the place- including many of the builder's clients (including me- he is a charmer and I fell for it. It was only a couple of 100, and I will just let it go) ... Currently as this is now known by all (not my debt, I've kept quiet about it- I chose to lend him some money, my problem) - there is no way he would 'pass'.
sure, you only posted it on the internet
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  #32  
Old 20.07.2017, 12:39
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Re: Naturalization - a complete protocol of a Kafkaesque sharade

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In Buchs, Aldi and Migros are located in an industrial area on the edge of the town, near the Autobahn. Coop on the otherhand is located in the town center. Why on earth would anyone prefer to shop in Aldi when they have a Coop much closer?
Taking the car - which one took up a credit to buy for - for a spin?
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  #33  
Old 20.07.2017, 13:33
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Re: Naturalization - a complete protocol of a Kafkaesque sharade

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... as usual we do not know all the facts- do we. So yes, being in debt would weigh heavily in the decision- as she is much more likely to become a 'burden' on the local tax payers.
Not all facts. But quite a lot more than in other cases which were denied. One of the interesting facts is that we have the full protocol of the interview. We know what questions were asked and what the answers have been given and how those were finally condensed into a recommendation. The interview protocol alone is interesting as it gives us a lot of insight how the local naturalization committee is working and thinking. It is a must read for anyone who wishes to become Swiss in a smallish commune.

The most important issue for anyone who wants become Swiss the regular non-facilitated way?
naturalization-complete-protocol-kafkaesque-sharade-d1z3r.jpg
Many forget that. Or as melloncollie says: You have to please to local Geranium Police.

Now, the girl participated in the past in local Turnverein (Gymnastic club). If you partake in this activity for more than two year you just deserve to be Swiss.

Most of her answers are not far apart from what you would expect from her Swiss peers. Some of the questions are blatantly stupid and sometimes even wrong. It looks like the interviewers goals was to find reason for denial. They used leading questions which when answered where responded with a "Yes that's true, but we were thinking of something completely else, do you know what we meant?." The interviewer sometimes tries to dig deeper but blatantly fails, because of missing knowledge, to put the finger on some of the lingering issues which would give real reason for denial. In the end, out of their own incompetency, they have to build a case from wobbly building materials they were able to scrap together during the interview, sometimes resorting to nitpicking. Given we have the full protocol we see the full farce of the process which puts the naturalization committee not into its best light.
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  #34  
Old 20.07.2017, 14:56
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Re: Naturalization - a complete protocol of a Kafkaesque sharade

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Maybe the fact they are now married and have a son has something to do with it, which is ridiculous if so.
That's why he was granted, he became part of the "pillar of society"

I am serious, I've spoken already with 2 people who are on the naturalization committee in my commune and both have said they simply don't give green light to single people or people without children. They say the system prefers families because of many different reasons.

Also with the new rules coming up in 2018 - they've made the time required for a citizenship shorter but they have made the rules quite stricter than before. That's typically Swiss I'd say
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  #35  
Old 20.07.2017, 14:59
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Re: Naturalization - a complete protocol of a Kafkaesque sharade

Who better to judge whether you are a good fit into a community than those who live around you ??

Far far superior system to anywhere else I am familiar with.
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  #36  
Old 20.07.2017, 15:03
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Re: Naturalization - a complete protocol of a Kafkaesque sharade

Can somebody PLEASE correct the title spelling?

Tom
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  #37  
Old 20.07.2017, 15:58
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Re: Naturalization - a complete protocol of a Kafkaesque sharade

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sure, you only posted it on the internet
silly comment... I don't think a post on EF will catch up with him, somehow hey point is, I did not snitch on him but found out I was not the only one to get stung. Metnionned only to illustrate I know that it is not gossip or hearsay. Many others have gone to complain to his employer, expecting him to pay his debts for some stupid reason. Second point being. will suck it up as no-one forced me to lend him money. And 3rd point- the community would have previously been very glad to give him naturalisation- when he was working hard and not being a 'burden' on tax payers- but not once it was known he is a gambler and has debts all over the place- mainly in the Commune.

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  #38  
Old 20.07.2017, 17:12
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Re: Naturalization - a complete protocol of a Kafkaesque sharade

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silly comment... I don't think a post on EF will catch up with him, somehow hey point is, I did not snitch on him but found out I was not the only one to get stung. Metnionned only to illustrate I know that it is not gossip or hearsay. Many others have gone to complain to his employer, expecting him to pay his debts for some stupid reason. Second point being. will suck it up as no-one forced me to lend him money. And 3rd point- the community would have previously been very glad to give him naturalisation- when he was working hard and not being a 'burden' on tax payers- but not once it was known he is a gambler and has debts all over the place- mainly in the Commune.
Amazing how one's views change when they themselves have had to bear the burden of others' nonsense... if only you were able to extrapolate the same level of decency to the entire accepting community that you are to your own a lot of the threads here would be less shrill.
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Old 20.07.2017, 17:28
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Re: Naturalization - a complete protocol of a Kafkaesque sharade

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... as usual we do not know all the facts- do we. So yes, being in debt would weigh heavily in the decision- as she is much more likely to become a 'burden' on the local tax payers.

One Albanian guy here, a builder with a local contractor, would have been a prime candidate for naturalisation. Well liked and respected - but it has turned out he is a gambler and has debts all over the place- including many of the builder's clients (including me- he is a charmer and I fell for it. It was only a couple of 100, and I will just let it go) ... Currently as this is now known by all (not my debt, I've kept quiet about it- I chose to lend him some money, my problem) - there is no way he would 'pass'.
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silly comment... I don't think a post on EF will catch up with him .....
Amazing how many people still don't realize what little info it takes to find a whole bunch of personal details about them. And it really doesn't take being a pro journalist to do it either.

You live somewhere in the sticks, no? I'm sure that would be easy to find out looking through your posts too. Plus we know where you work/volunteer if the posts don't reveal where to look for you, respectively the "here" of "an Albanian guy here".

While it's everyone's decision to reveal as much as she/he likes about her/himself the above is absolutely too much info about a third person!!
To be honest, if I were a mod, I'd delete your post I quoted! (If one does, my post goes too )

However, he will be pleased to read/hear about this.
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  #40  
Old 20.07.2017, 17:44
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Re: Naturalization - a complete protocol of a Kafkaesque sharade

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However, he will be pleased to read/hear about this.
I feel like you're assuming that this story is true.
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