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  #61  
Old 22.10.2017, 19:17
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Re: Initiative for organ donation

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I would imagine that anyone opposed to organ donation is also opposed to receiving one, so no problem.

I would also imagine that anyone who needs a transplant also would not make a suitable donor.

Tom
Not necessarily - I recall one case where a person receiving a heart-lungs transplant donated his own heart to someone else. Apparently it's easier to do lungs and heart together and his own heart was in decent nick.
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  #62  
Old 22.10.2017, 19:29
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Re: Initiative for organ donation

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.....For people who live here- a good and clear publicity campaign over a period of 6 months or so- would do the trick nicely.
No need for that as we vote about such things. And we know what we vote about and therefore also about what we have decided on.
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Old 22.10.2017, 21:15
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Re: Initiative for organ donation

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No need for that as we vote about such things. And we know what we vote about and therefore also about what we have decided on.
Judging by some of the laws that get passed, it's pretty clear that a lot of people have absolutely no idea what they are 'voting about'. *

Remember, Switzerland works well in spite of direct democracy and not because of it.

* Just to be clear, this the same in a lot of countries - just look what happened in the U.K. with Brexit.
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  #64  
Old 22.10.2017, 21:29
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Re: Initiative for organ donation

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Judging by some of the laws that get passed, it's pretty clear that a lot of people have absolutely no idea what they are 'voting about'. *

Remember, Switzerland works well in spite of direct democracy and not because of it.

* Just to be clear, this the same in a lot of countries - just look what happened in the U.K. with Brexit.
This is nonsense.

Swiss society is cohesive because new laws have a high degree of acceptability. The acceptability of Swiss laws is guaranteed by the combination of exhaustive consultations before legislation is presented to the Federal Assembly, and then due to the existence of a popular veto being possible where a new normative rule is too far from the current social reality.

Federal initiatives are usually refused (statistically speaking) and even when passed they almost always require the Federal Assembly to pass a new law to implement them. Amendments to the federal constitution are not directly implementable and are not 'laws that get passed,' as you put it.

The use of referendums, in my opinion, works extremely well when they occur regularly and are not used as ad hoc legislative measures. For lots of people, Brexit was about a lot more than leaving the EU; people used the Brexit vote in the same way they use general, local, and European elections: to show their displeasure with the current government. In Switzerland, regular referendums and a sui generis collegial form of government mean that politics is less personified and less divided into a two-party dichotomy as in other European states.
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  #65  
Old 22.10.2017, 21:41
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Re: Initiative for organ donation

Not to forget that our referendums are binding
So we can not - and do not - afford to have emotional hissy fits at the ballot box.
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Old 22.10.2017, 21:45
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Re: Initiative for organ donation

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Not to forget that our referendums are binding
So we can not - and do not - afford to have emotional hissy fits at the ballot box.
My understanding is that voter turnout ranges between 30 and 50%. I think the Swiss system is great, but I donít know that I agree that the public is always so well informed. And yes, I know other places are worse, too.
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Old 22.10.2017, 21:48
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Re: Initiative for organ donation

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My understanding is that voter turnout ranges between 30 and 50%. I think the Swiss system is great, but I donít know that I agree that the public is always so well informed. And yes, I know other places are worse, too.
I don't think a low turnout rate for referendums is necessarily a bad thing; if someone doesn't really understand what they're voting on, they may feel that it's better to let others decide.
I think that low turnout rates for elections are more problematic, however.
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Old 22.10.2017, 21:55
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Re: Initiative for organ donation

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Well, I shall object!
I want to decide what I DO want. Not be on my toes all the time, trying to be alert of all the things I might have to say no to. Because what will be next?!?

What was the slogan re abortion? "This is my body". Darn right it is. If I want to donate it, I carry a card. If I don't, I don't. And even more: What ever I want done with my body after death (and during life as well ..... just in case there are any ideas I haven't heard about yet) I do not want to have defend the decision.

I seem to be the only one who thinks she's about to live in a science fiction movie.
Right. That's you out of my recycling centre: I'm not giving you my bits and pieces.
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Old 22.10.2017, 21:59
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Re: Initiative for organ donation

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I don't think a low turnout rate for referendums is necessarily a bad thing; if someone doesn't really understand what they're voting on, they may feel that it's better to let others decide.
I think that low turnout rates for elections are more problematic, however.
Fair enough. Does it matter if low turnout is due to apathy or lack of knowledge?
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  #70  
Old 22.10.2017, 22:05
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Re: Initiative for organ donation

What difference does the turnout rate make?

Tom
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  #71  
Old 22.10.2017, 22:21
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Re: Initiative for organ donation

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My understanding is that voter turnout ranges between 30 and 50%. I think the Swiss system is great, but I donít know that I agree that the public is always so well informed. And yes, I know other places are worse, too.
You are correct. And it's a shame (turnout). But I did notice that the last few times it was exceptionally high.
As to informed: We too have the "headline-readers only".

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I don't think a low turnout rate for referendums is necessarily a bad thing; if someone doesn't really understand what they're voting on, they may feel that it's better to let others decide.
I think that low turnout rates for elections are more problematic, however.
Abstention from voting should always be declared by putting a line in the box and deliver the paper! It changes the entire picture, which can be important. Just not taking part is not the same thing.
I do that in very seldom cases, for example if it is something that concerns parents only and I don't want to interfere.

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Right. That's you out of my recycling centre: I'm not giving you my bits and pieces.
That's fine by me, Ma'am I don't want any.

I see you got your will written: Aunty Emma gets my lungs, by brother Paul gets my liver .....
I suspect it will take an other couple of decades until it works like this though.
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Old 22.10.2017, 22:24
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Re: Initiative for organ donation

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That's fine by me, Ma'am I don't want any.
.
You only say that because you haven't seen them.
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  #73  
Old 22.10.2017, 22:24
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Re: Initiative for organ donation

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Couldnít agree more with this bit. Itís the tiniest sacrifice you can make to give back to society - donating something you no longer need and wonít feel any loss from. If you canít even do that, then you should not expect society to prioritize giving to you, either.
Illogical point.

It's not the public's organs but the respective individual's. Therefor it's not the public who donates but the individual. Nobody does any donating but Jagwaugh (random pick) when it comes to donating (or not) Jagwaugh's organs.

By the same logic you should propose 100% inheritance tax, you're not gonna have any use of that either after death. Can't wait for the protest storm against such a proposition.
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Old 22.10.2017, 22:33
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Re: Initiative for organ donation

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By the same logic you should propose 100% inheritance tax, you're not gonna have any use of that either after death. Can't wait for the protest storm against such a proposition.
I'd wager this is pretty illogical and not at all the same. Things and money inherited are used by others after death - organs just die with you and are wasted if not donated.

Last edited by Odile; 22.10.2017 at 23:03.
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  #75  
Old 22.10.2017, 22:36
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Re: Initiative for organ donation

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You only say that because you haven't seen them.
Seen what, your organs? I haven't even seen mine!
You're a bit strange sometimes, no?

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Illogical point.

It's not the public's organs but the respective individual's. Therefor it's not the public who donates but the individual. Nobody does any donating but Jagwaugh (random pick) when it comes to donating (or not) Jagwaugh's organs.
That seems to be the goal: We want your organs so we declare them ours (okay, okay, if you insist you can say no but you have to put it in writing).
I can't wait until the first Brit (or what ever) dies in Switzerland: Who's gonna get his/her organs? A Swiss? Or worse: A non-Brit/non Swiss person? Yes, I'm gonna love it, no doubt. The SwissintheUS and I are gonna have the time of our life researching the legal answers

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By the same logic you should propose 100% inheritance tax, you're not gonna have any use of that either after death. Can't wait for the protest storm against such a proposition.
Oi! You! Will you stop planting these ideas , you know how they are here
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  #76  
Old 22.10.2017, 23:06
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Re: Initiative for organ donation

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Seen what, your organs? I haven't even seen mine!
You're a bit strange sometimes, no?

strange - and then you follow with this comment ?!? wahooo


That seems to be the goal: We want your organs so we declare them ours (okay, okay, if you insist you can say no but you have to put it in writing).
I can't wait until the first Brit (or what ever) dies in Switzerland: Who's gonna get his/her organs? A Swiss? Or worse: A non-Brit/non Swiss person? Yes, I'm gonna love it, no doubt. The SwissintheUS and I are gonna have the time of our life researching the legal answers

The don't declare them theirs - but the people's- for use as and when required- once you don't need them anymore
you know full well nationality will not come into play in the decision. Although they might not accept donors from UK, due to CJD risk.
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  #77  
Old 22.10.2017, 23:22
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Re: Initiative for organ donation

Shortly before I moved to Switzerland I lost my purse which contained, among other things, my UK organ donor card. I didnít bother too much about it, being about to leave the country.

When I returned to the UK in April last year one of the first things I did was register as an organ donor again, using my new address. I didnít think much about it - I'd registered before, there was a flyer in a shop, I picked one up and filled it out.

This September, a year and four months after I'd filled out that form, my donor card arrived in the post, attached to a letter apologising for the 'slight delay' in processing it. By which time I had moved (thankfully the old address was with relatives).

Which makes me think: we hear so much about the need for organ donors, but if I'd been in an accident between my registering and the arrival of my card, my organs might not have been used because I wouldnít have been carrying a donor card. I can understand a backlog of a few months, but over a year?

The letter also encouraged me to tell my family about my wishes, presumably so that they have time to take it in and are not faced with that information for the first time immediately after my decease.

Personally I think an opt-out programme is a good idea.
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  #78  
Old 22.10.2017, 23:23
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Re: Initiative for organ donation

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I'd wager this is pretty illogical and not at all the same. Things and money inherited are used by others after death - organs just die with you and are wasted if not donated.
Entirely logical. Organs would fall under the category of "things inherited" if the word inherited becomes synonymous with donated. They are used after death. You'll be against folk leaving their millions to their moggy next...

And while I'm at it : Medea, there isn't any such thing as "typical British fudging" - it's clearly been a while and you are mis-remembering.

And Miss M is no stranger than she needs to be, all her parts are entirly fabulous.

An up to date, easily checkable online system is the way to go. But it should be the choice of the individual, just as talking it through with their nearest and dearest is up to them too.
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  #79  
Old 22.10.2017, 23:31
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Re: Initiative for organ donation

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you know full well nationality will not come into play in the decision. Although they might not accept donors from UK, due to CJD risk.
Now that was totally contradictory.

And yes, there will be many interesting questions to answer:
Someone said, in GB and Spain everybody is a donor, unless he/she opted out.
So if such a person lives then dies in Switzerland, we can take their organs even if our laws are different. Can we not?

The other example, where someone said, that if a foreigner moves to Switzerland and we would have decided everybody is a donor unless opted out and they should be informed by the "Gemeinde" about it: So everybody who lives in Switzerland then has to adabt to this law? And if he/she forgets to opt out (or didn't quite understand this law, which will be exceptionally strange to people from many countries and cultures!) - well too bad? We'll take the organs? (That's even worse than the burka-law, you know?!).

A Spanish person who is automatically a donor (and agrees with it), living in Switzerland and dying here while we don't have this system: Won't the Spanish insist that their people on the waiting list are entitled to have the organs?

Someone even claimed "to give something back to society"! Which society. The one they lived in (and how long must they have lived in it for, to be considered owning something to it) or the one they belong to by citizenship?

Actually, who started this thread? It's a great subject, I just realized

PS: An other question just crossed my mind: If everybody is a donor by law, is one then allowed to donate to a relative who is further down the list than an other one who would fit?
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Old 23.10.2017, 00:13
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Re: Initiative for organ donation

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What difference does the turnout rate make?

Tom
Are you serious? Would you not question a law voted on by 1% of eligible voters.
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