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Old 03.11.2017, 07:34
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Re: Black Lives Matter lands in Lausanne, just what .ch doesn't need.

I think many of the forum members are living in a English Forum bubble and in a Swiss bubble, so are doubly bubbly to the realities of the world.
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  #22  
Old 03.11.2017, 08:21
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Re: Black Lives Matter lands in Lausanne, just what .ch doesn't need.

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Your error is to believe on what the media or this terrorist movement called Black Lives Matter tells. There is no police bias against black people in the US. Statistics show that in the US police doesn't kill more blacks than whites, proportionally to the population. There is, however, a disproportionately high number ofd murders of black people by black people.
Even if the number of murders of black people by black people is disproportionately high compared to other groups, the police bias against blacks is still something bad, is that so complicated to grasp, really.... If a specific group has more problems than others in some areas, it doesn't mean all the members of the said group should be treated as lesser human beings. See, that's how racists think - if one does a shitty thing then all of them can do that shitty thing, so any measure is justified. There's a lot of dehumanising of some groups, a lot of projections and assumptions. But then again, common sense, logics and (scientific) evidence was never the forte of racism.
What if your neighbour hates you because you are loud and let your dog poop in the hallway so he'll go and vandalise your whole family's houses, eh.

Interesting article on why black-on-black crime is not what you're supposed to discuss here

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You’ve heard it before. It is the most frequent response to any accusation of police brutality. It is the repeated sleight of hand used to distract and drown out the voices of Black Lives Matter. It is an oft-used “alt-right” refrain and a sincere query from curious white questioners. It is the weapon of choice for the black practitioners of respectability politics and the favorite follow-up for people who frame their arguments with the preamble, “Not all white people ... ”

Why don’t black people ever talk about black-on-black crime?

Instead of rejecting the entire notion as a method of deflection and privilege, we will attempt to formally dismiss the conversation forever by laying out the facts about why white America never hears us talk about black-on-black crime.

It’s not a thing.

According to the FBI’s uniform crime-reporting data for 2016, 90.1 percent of black victims of homicide were killed by other blacks, while 83.5 percent of whites were killed by other whites. While no life is inconsequential, the statistical evidence shows that—just as for blacks when it comes to black-on-black crime—whites are mostly victimized by other whites, with the vast majority of white murders committed by whites. This is because most victims of crime personally know their assailants. And while this is a truth across racial boundaries, no one ever talks about “white-on-white crime.”

Furthermore, the Bureau of Justice Statistics’ arrest data analysis tool shows that less than 1 percent of blacks overall (about 2 percent of black men) commit a violent crime in any given year. This means, factoring in interracial violent offenses, 99 percent of black men do not commit black-on-black crime.

It has nothing to do with what we are talking about.

Imagine the head of Homeland Security walking up to the microphone to hold a press conference after a horrific terrorist attack, but when reporters start asking him about stopping terrorism and catching the culprits, he begins talking about texting and driving.

Sounds stupid, right?

But distracted driving kills more Americans each year than terrorism (and black-on-black crime), according to the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, so, according to the advocates of conversations about black-on-black crime, we should be discussing this first.

It is true that the vast majority of black murders are committed by black men, and we should do something to combat that statistic (we will get to that later, I promise), but that fact has nothing to do with state violence. When anyone interrupts a discussion about Black Lives Matter by bringing up black-on-black crime, it sounds as stupid as if a doctor addressed a cancerous brain tumor by asking about domestic violence, or if America’s highest-ranking government official addressed white supremacist Nazi-palooza by talking about the so-called alt-left and the “very fine” tiki-torch carriers.

No one would ever be that stupid.

We actually do talk about it ... all the time.

It is perfectly understandable why white America assumes that black people don’t talk about black-on-black crime. However, the reason they make this assumption dates to a quote found in recently uncovered papers from an unnamed woman archaeological and historical researchers refer to as “Grandmama”:

“It ain’t none of their damn business.”

The reality is, in neighborhoods and cities across America, there are countless organizations, activists and movements dedicated to curbing violence in black communities. The number of “Stop the Violence” marches dwarfs the demonstrations against police brutality. Unity rallies and peace picnics happen every day. Scared Straight programs for at-risk youths, gang counseling, neighborhood watches, intervention specialists, youth counselors, and too many other people and groups to name all lead the charge against crime and violence.

But those efforts don’t make the evening news because they aren’t as salacious as people blocking traffic and protesting; nor do they serve the preconceived white confirmation bias. Besides, there’s no way white people would know about this unless they stopped deflecting with trite questions and instead actually went into a minority neighborhood to selflessly join the effort to address the problems plaguing ...

OK, you can stop laughing now.

OK, let’s talk about black-on-black crime.

Both sociologists and criminologists agree that violent crime is a complex socioeconomic phenomenon. Generally speaking, research shows that poor people commit the most crime: According to the Bureau of Justice Statistics, during the period from 2008 through 2012, “persons in poor households at or below the federal poverty level (FPL) (39.8 per 1,000) had more than double the rate of violent victimization as persons in high-income households (16.9 per 1,000) ... The overall pattern of poor persons having the highest rates of violent victimization was consistent for both whites and blacks.”

Knowing this, the small difference in crime rates can easily be explained by income disparity. Maybe the question should be why are such a large percentage of black people poor?

As a matter of fact, if we are going to derail a conversation about black lives to talk about black-on-black crime, there are a few other questions we should answer first:

Why is the rate of violence actually higher among poor, urban whites? Why don’t we ever discuss the economic impact of redlining and segregation on rates of violence?

If we are going to discuss the number of black people killed by blacks, should we discuss the number of white people murdered, raped and assaulted by fellow whites? Will this conversation include a debate about how blacks are arrested, incarcerated and sentenced for longer periods than whites for committing the same crimes?

Are you willing to detour into a brief explanation of why schools with large percentages of blacks are underfunded even though they have the same tax base and incomes? Do you have time to talk about the wage gap? Unemployment disparities?

All of these factors contribute to crime rates. So if you want to have a conversation about black-on-black crime, you should be careful, because, like most conversations about race, it will end up back in the same place:

White supremacy.

*A previous version of this article said that most murders were committed by whites. The FBI statistic referred to by that claim is only true in homicides by a single victim and a single offender.
https://www.theroot.com/why-we-never...wer-1819092337

Last edited by greenmount; 03.11.2017 at 11:19.
  #23  
Old 06.11.2017, 13:52
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Re: Black Lives Matter lands in Lausanne, just what .ch doesn't need.

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So when we talk about black lives, are we talking about black people in general, migrants or refugees? And what about the rest?

If the slogan were "All Lives Matter", I'd have more empathy for the group.
Apparently that would be racist...(according to liberal media outlets, at least)
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when you say “All Lives Matter,” you are perpetuating toxic racism and in fact causing harm.
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/jesse..._11004780.html
  #24  
Old 06.11.2017, 14:12
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Re: Black Lives Matter lands in Lausanne, just what .ch doesn't need.

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I wonder if they shoot their own leg with this. By complaining about this non-issue (here in ch), they deflect attention away from the real issues which certainly exist. And they anger the local people because they can't relate to their problem and consider them just whining and will be deaf towards further complaints.
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Apparently that would be racist...(according to liberal media outlets, at least)

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/jesse..._11004780.html
Well, yes. The concept is called "context". "All lives matter" was a direct response of the alt-right movement in the US when the "black lives matter" thing first happened. Populism at it's finest: You make a statement that at face value is agreeable, but is toxic in the context. It basically means "You black folks should not blame everything on your skin color, there are probably other reasons why you get shot by the cops".

I don't think Swiss police is killing anyone lightly, so I don't think the problem of deadly police violence really exists. However, I must say that whenever I witnessed the cops in Zurich doing spot checks on nights out did they most of the time search some African guy. Wether that was due to his skincolor or the cops knowing exactly who and what for they are searching is then the actual and far more difficult discussion. I guess its simply true that:
- the cops search more regularly black people than Reto or Ueli.
- certain immigrant groups (not just "black people" but very clear cut African nationalities) are wildly over-represented in drug dealing in Switzerland.

So I think it's a thin line for the cops to walk: Their job is to search for drug dealers. They know the Nigerians are at it. They see some West African looking dude walking down to the known dealing hot spot... are they stereotyping? I am sure they are. Would I do the same in their job? Probably yes.

But for me is there a massive difference between dealing with a specific problem caused by a tiny group of immigrants as in CH or the apparent social injustice towards minorities in the US.
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Old 06.11.2017, 14:33
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Re: Black Lives Matter lands in Lausanne, just what .ch doesn't need.

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Apparently that would be racist...(according to liberal media outlets, at least)

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/jesse..._11004780.html
no you just devalue the message, no one denied all lives matter, the campaign is specifically to do with how society, the media and police respond to the victims and suspects of crime when they are black! It's OK Esto you can take a breather on this subject now! We know how worked up some of the forum users are about things that seem liberal or that they don't really understand.
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Old 06.11.2017, 14:43
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Re: Black Lives Matter lands in Lausanne, just what .ch doesn't need.

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I must say that whenever I witnessed the cops in Zurich doing spot checks on nights out did they most of the time search some African guy. Wether that was due to his skincolor or the cops knowing exactly who and what for they are searching is then the actual and far more difficult discussion.
I have a couple friends who are undercover ZH Kripo. We have had that discussion, and, at least in their case, they know exactly who and what they are looking for.

With uniformed cops, it may be different.

Tom
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Old 06.11.2017, 14:48
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Re: Black Lives Matter lands in Lausanne, just what .ch doesn't need.

Still trying to work out what was the point of the post, and the intention of the OP???
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Old 06.11.2017, 15:01
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Re: Black Lives Matter lands in Lausanne, just what .ch doesn't need.

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I have a couple friends who are undercover ZH Kripo. We have had that discussion, and, at least in their case, they know exactly who and what they are looking for.

With uniformed cops, it may be different.

Tom
I guarantee that it's not the African or Middle Eastern looking guy carrying the grade A coke. I don't think the ZH police are all that clued up, and spot check foreigners because they are more likely to have a sans or illegal papers result then discover some serious criminal activity. The real crims in ZH are pushing ill gotten gains around the world from the safety of their desks in Paradeplatz with their lawyers finding all the loopholes! Ain't no justice in this world.
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  #29  
Old 06.11.2017, 15:23
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Re: Black Lives Matter lands in Lausanne, just what .ch doesn't need.

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So I think it's a thin line for the cops to walk: Their job is to search for drug dealers. They know the Nigerians are at it. They see some West African looking dude walking down to the known dealing hot spot... are they stereotyping? I am sure they are. Would I do the same in their job? Probably yes.
Interesting. But isn't targeting people because of their skin color "racism"?
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Old 06.11.2017, 17:04
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Re: Black Lives Matter lands in Lausanne, just what .ch doesn't need.

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no you just devalue the message, no one denied all lives matter, the campaign is specifically to do with how society, the media and police respond to the victims and suspects of crime when they are black! It's OK Esto you can take a breather on this subject now! We know how worked up some of the forum users are about things that seem liberal or that they don't really understand.
Ok then - would you proudly display on your FB page (for example) that you are the founder of a new group called White Lives Matter?

Didn't think so. Why not?
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  #31  
Old 06.11.2017, 17:36
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Re: Black Lives Matter lands in Lausanne, just what .ch doesn't need.

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Interesting. But isn't targeting people because of their skin color "racism"?
It sure is by definition. But only if it is because of the skin color alone.

If the cops continuously pick the black guy at any "random" police check is it surely not ok. But if the cops know that a certain street is run by a group of drug dealers with a specific appearance and a person happens to fit the description is it not.

So if the people who get checked a lot don't just happen to have one skin color, but also share gender, are all in a specific age, wear similar clothes... at what point is it not racism anymore?

I remember how we complained as teenagers that the cops seem to really always just pull us out of traffic. These days do I think if I was a cop I might also go for the tuned Honda instead of the grandpa in the family car...
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Old 07.11.2017, 10:52
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Re: Black Lives Matter lands in Lausanne, just what .ch doesn't need.

Crossing the pond 'Angry, White and American' documentary on Channel 4, 9pm UK time (10pm CH time)- watch the KKK explain why and how Africans have so benefited from their 'work'.
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Old 07.11.2017, 11:52
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Re: Black Lives Matter lands in Lausanne, just what .ch doesn't need.

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Its difficult to understand racism or discrimination if you're not from that racial group. Its like me saying sexism doesn't exist in the workplace because I've never seen it happen. If black people feel that their colour singles them out for extra police attention or brusque treatment then its their right to demonstrate in a non-violent manner.
Yeah this.

I'm a black guy and once I boarded the train to go somewhere, when I got in all the sits were taken except one row. As in 8 total sits empty, one corridor to separate the 4 on the left side of the train and 4 on the right side. The floor on the left side was a mess, it seemed like someone/animal had a kebab and left the rest on the floor. So, I sat on right side where it was clean. Now mind you, I wasn't even chewing a gum or had any food on me. Three cops got inside the train looking for someone, they came directly to me and asked me for my papers, I guess that's reasonable if they were searching for a black guy, so I'm 100% ok with that. But one of them pointed at the food on the floor of the other side and said looking at me "vous avez plus faim??" which means "Are you not hungry anymore?" As in I had ate some of it and threw the rest on the floor, just like that. Without any evidence, not even a clue.

So the truth is things here are not in anyway the same as in the US but you can't fully say what racial group go though their daily life if you are not one of them yourself.
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  #34  
Old 07.11.2017, 14:42
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Re: Black Lives Matter lands in Lausanne, just what .ch doesn't need.

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It's OK Esto you can take a breather on this subject now! We know how worked up some of the forum users are about things that seem liberal or that they don't really understand.
I grew up in the US and went to a very mixed race school. I can tell you racism is not limited to "white on black". I can't tell you how many times I heard "Hey white boy" followed by some threats.. Good luck walking into an all-black neighborhood if you aren't black yourself. Gangs were usually formed around ethnic cliques as well. MS13 only takes latinos. Nobody seems to give a crap about Asians (example) because they don't seem to speak up with a loud enough voice. It's all about making noise. The black population has got very vocal, and the liberal media jumps on it. Racism has actually gotten worse in the last years, and suddenly everything has a racial perspective. BLM is not against racism in general, they are only active against anti-black racism, which makes them racists in my book.

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It sure is by definition. But only if it is because of the skin color alone.

If the cops continuously pick the black guy at any "random" police check is it surely not ok. But if the cops know that a certain street is run by a group of drug dealers with a specific appearance and a person happens to fit the description is it not.

So if the people who get checked a lot don't just happen to have one skin color, but also share gender, are all in a specific age, wear similar clothes... at what point is it not racism anymore?

I remember how we complained as teenagers that the cops seem to really always just pull us out of traffic. These days do I think if I was a cop I might also go for the tuned Honda instead of the grandpa in the family car...
Haha, very good, bravo. However racism isn't always so (pardon the pun) black and white. What about "perceived" racism? What if some black American tourist is walking down the street where Nigerians are known to drug deal, and the cops stop him? He can turn to the nearest news outlet and say "Züri cops are racist! They stopped me and thought I was a drug dealer only because I'm black!"

And then aren't you "stereotyping" Nigerians negatively? What about all the innocent Nigerians, like the nice bankers who always send me e-mails? Now they are going to be lumped in with the dealers. Is this fair?

And as you say guys with tuned Honda's are probably more apt to speed than grandpas car, what about having Muslims go thru extended security checks at airports? Would that be discrimination, or a prudent/reasonable action?
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Old 07.11.2017, 14:44
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Re: Black Lives Matter lands in Lausanne, just what .ch doesn't need.

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Yeah this.

I'm a black guy and once I boarded the train to go somewhere, when I got in all the sits were taken except one row. As in 8 total sits empty, one corridor to separate the 4 on the left side of the train and 4 on the right side. The floor on the left side was a mess, it seemed like someone/animal had a kebab and left the rest on the floor. So, I sat on right side where it was clean. Now mind you, I wasn't even chewing a gum or had any food on me. Three cops got inside the train looking for someone, they came directly to me and asked me for my papers, I guess that's reasonable if they were searching for a black guy, so I'm 100% ok with that. But one of them pointed at the food on the floor of the other side and said looking at me "vous avez plus faim??" which means "Are you not hungry anymore?" As in I had ate some of it and threw the rest on the floor, just like that. Without any evidence, not even a clue.

So the truth is things here are not in anyway the same as in the US but you can't fully say what racial group go though their daily life if you are not one of them yourself.
My brother once ate all the cookies and then left the room. My mom came in and saw me sitting there with an empty cookie jar and punished me. I had no idea my mom was racist
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Old 07.11.2017, 15:01
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Re: Black Lives Matter lands in Lausanne, just what .ch doesn't need.

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My brother once ate all the cookies and then left the room. My mom came in and saw me sitting there with an empty cookie jar and punished me. I had no idea my mom was racist
Yeah, cos that's the same.

I'm sorry some black people stole your sweetroll at school, but that doesn't mean racism doesn't exist towards black people in general society.
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Old 07.11.2017, 15:05
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Re: Black Lives Matter lands in Lausanne, just what .ch doesn't need.

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Agree. I'm white, male, and have no right talking about being black or being female. Or deciding what they should do with their bodies. etc etc
By that measure, nobody has the right to say anything about somebody who is different to them?
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Old 07.11.2017, 15:08
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Re: Black Lives Matter lands in Lausanne, just what .ch doesn't need.

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By that measure, nobody has the right to say anything about somebody who is different to them?
I suspect GBN means talk with authority about something without having walked a mile in their shoes. You can of course say what you like, but whether anyone is inclined to listen is a different matter.
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Old 07.11.2017, 15:08
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Re: Black Lives Matter lands in Lausanne, just what .ch doesn't need.

That's not what he said. He said he should not be talking about being black.

Which makes sense. But you can also be a dick about it the same way Esto was above...
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Old 07.11.2017, 15:09
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Re: Black Lives Matter lands in Lausanne, just what .ch doesn't need.

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I guarantee that it's not the African or Middle Eastern looking guy carrying the grade A coke. I don't think the ZH police are all that clued up, and spot check foreigners because they are more likely to have a sans or illegal papers result then discover some serious criminal activity. The real crims in ZH are pushing ill gotten gains around the world from the safety of their desks in Paradeplatz with their lawyers finding all the loopholes! Ain't no justice in this world.
And you do know that the big boss at Credit Suisse is a black guy right?

And I would assume a good number of the richer customers too.

So trying to split crime into white crime vs. black crime doesn't really make much sense.
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