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Old 13.10.2019, 22:40
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Re: Why is SVP popular?

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Well no, I've been paying in full-time taxes for three years in this country (and for another seven years if you count my part time jobs back home) so I'm well aware of them. Taxes are also really low here compared to just about anywhere else..

Wars have been fought any number of reasons so I don't see how that in itself is an argument, my point is that the citizens of any country alone have the right to choose what civil rights and duties they share and with whom. That's the foundation of any nation state.

Being a tax payer doesn't magically make you a citizen, You wouldn't be drafted or expected to do civil service, so without the same obligations why would you expect to have the same rights?

In my opinion the idea that you're entitled to anything in a foreign country is a consequence of an inflated ego and "me me me" mentality. In some ways it's downright disrespectful.
"my point is that the citizens of any country alone have the right to choose what civil rights and duties they share and with whom." This your opinion but not a fact, many countries allow foreigners to vote.
Even here in Switzerland, the cantons of Jura and Neuchâtel grant foreigners the right to vote in cantonal elections, under Article 36(1) of the Federal Constitution, the cantons have the power to grant political rights in both cantonal and municipal elections and so many communities have foreigner voting rights.
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  #222  
Old 14.10.2019, 00:03
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Re: Why is SVP popular?

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A bit of good-natured whining over everyday issues is one thing everyone can afford themselves but it's really not an immigrant's place to complain about the politics of their host country.

What makes you think you should have the mandate to come here and change things? Especially presuming you came because Switzerland offers something the old country does not..
Because everybody has an opinion. The idea of not voicing something because reasons. Sounds like living in a country where you would be sent to a re-education camp or something.

At the very moment you pay your taxes and your Gemeinde, Kanton and Country you live in do with that money what they want. You should have a voice. The absurd is me being able to vote in a country, prefecture and city I've been away for 13 years.
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  #223  
Old 14.10.2019, 08:50
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Re: Why is SVP popular?

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"my point is that the citizens of any country alone have the right to choose what civil rights and duties they share and with whom." This your opinion but not a fact, many countries allow foreigners to vote.
Even here in Switzerland, the cantons of Jura and Neuchâtel grant foreigners the right to vote in cantonal elections, under Article 36(1) of the Federal Constitution, the cantons have the power to grant political rights in both cantonal and municipal elections and so many communities have foreigner voting rights.
The cantons granted foreigners this right and 'the cantons' are ruled by its citizens... Isn't this exactly my point?

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Because everybody has an opinion. The idea of not voicing something because reasons. Sounds like living in a country where you would be sent to a re-education camp or something.

At the very moment you pay your taxes and your Gemeinde, Kanton and Country you live in do with that money what they want. You should have a voice. The absurd is me being able to vote in a country, prefecture and city I've been away for 13 years.
Just because everyone has an opinion does not mean that it is valuable or should be heeded. You're free to voice it as you wish but I find it out of place for us as foreigners to come here and impose our views on the locals.

If you condition the right to vote on having paid taxes rather than on citizenship, does that also imply that the people who do not pay taxes are not entitled to vote? Should you be allowed multiple votes in proportion to how much taxes you pay? Should taxed companies vote?

This might seem like a rant but I'm really curious to know what your line of reasoning is.
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  #224  
Old 14.10.2019, 11:33
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Re: Why is SVP popular?

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The cantons granted foreigners this right and 'the cantons' are ruled by its citizens... Isn't this exactly my point?



Just because everyone has an opinion does not mean that it is valuable or should be heeded. You're free to voice it as you wish but I find it out of place for us as foreigners to come here and impose our views on the locals.

If you condition the right to vote on having paid taxes rather than on citizenship, does that also imply that the people who do not pay taxes are not entitled to vote? Should you be allowed multiple votes in proportion to how much taxes you pay? Should taxed companies vote?

This might seem like a rant but I'm really curious to know what your line of reasoning is.
Imho, paying taxes is just simply paying your own upkeep for a residence of your choice. You pick a hotel, you also pay your stay. Do people tell their hotel they stay in how they should run it or impose on the hotel what they should spend their money on? It would be considered me-me-me mentality. I agree with you. Maybe because I do not come from a consumerism based society, Switzerland isn't one, either. Maybe it is difficult to grasp for some folks.

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  #225  
Old 14.10.2019, 11:41
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Re: Why is SVP popular?

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Imho, paying taxes is just simply paying your own upkeep for a residence of your choice. You pick a hotel, you also pay your stay. Do people tell their hotel they stay in how they should run it or impose on the hotel what they should spend their money on? It would be considered me-me-me mentality. I agree with you. Maybe because I do not cone from a consumerism based society, Switzerland isn't one, either. Maybe it is difficult to grasp for some folks.
It's not difficult to grasp but that doesn't make it right. The analogy of the hotel is simply wrong.

People indirectly tell a hotel what to spend its money on otherwise the hotel would go out of business because nobody would go.

Countries don't work like that.
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  #226  
Old 14.10.2019, 12:04
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Re: Why is SVP popular?

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You are a student, so you probably never paid taxes in your life.
You are reaching very far in your assumption. Almost all students I know study and work, pay their taxes. Maybe it's been a while since you studied, but it is almost impossible to not have an income while studying, especially here where living costs are high (despite the low cost studies).
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Old 14.10.2019, 12:06
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Re: Why is SVP popular?

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It's not difficult to grasp but that doesn't make it right. The analogy of the hotel is simply wrong.

People indirectly tell a hotel what to spend its money on otherwise the hotel would go out of business because nobody would go.

Countries don't work like that.
People indirectly tell their Gemeinde what to spend their money on (and how much tax they are willing to pay for it) by chosing whether or not to live and do business there.

On a larger scale, the same happens between countries. Seeing Switzerland is pretty succesful when it comes to attracting people and companies, I guess they're doing something right.
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Old 14.10.2019, 12:13
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Re: Why is SVP popular?

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People indirectly tell their Gemeinde what to spend their money on (and how much tax they are willing to pay for it) by choosing whether or not to live and do business there.
Eh? Indirectly? Are you sure?

If you were to become Swiss, then you could do it directly. Don't need to worry about moving around looking for Gemeinde which fit your standards.

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On a larger scale, the same happens between countries. Seeing Switzerland is pretty successful when it comes to attracting people and companies, I guess they're doing something right.
So there is a whiff of similarity to a hotel if you squint your eyes and don't dwell too much on the actual facts, then. OK.
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  #229  
Old 14.10.2019, 12:35
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Re: Why is SVP popular?

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Eh? Indirectly? Are you sure?

If you were to become Swiss, then you could do it directly. Don't need to worry about moving around looking for Gemeinde which fit your standards.
In the rare case that the vote is split exactly 50/50, and your one vote will make all the difference, that would indeed work.

In the meantime, all the rich foreigners in Wollerau are not too concerned about that.
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  #230  
Old 14.10.2019, 12:40
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Re: Why is SVP popular?

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In the rare case that the vote is split exactly 50/50, and your one vote will make all the difference, that would indeed work.

In the meantime, all the rich foreigners in Wollerau are not too concerned about that.
Which further explains why the hotel analogy was utter bobbins...
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  #231  
Old 14.10.2019, 14:00
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Re: Why is SVP popular?

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many countries allow foreigners to vote
Such as?

(and please, no EU countries that allow other EU citizens to vote, which is like someone from Alabama being allowed to vote in NY)

I would go as far as to say that people with multiple citizenships be allowed to only vote in one country.

Tom
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  #232  
Old 14.10.2019, 14:27
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Re: Why is SVP popular?

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The cantons granted foreigners this right and 'the cantons' are ruled by its citizens... Isn't this exactly my point?

Just because everyone has an opinion does not mean that it is valuable or should be heeded. You're free to voice it as you wish but I find it out of place for us as foreigners to come here and impose our views on the locals.

If you condition the right to vote on having paid taxes rather than on citizenship, does that also imply that the people who do not pay taxes are not entitled to vote? Should you be allowed multiple votes in proportion to how much taxes you pay? Should taxed companies vote?

This might seem like a rant but I'm really curious to know what your line of reasoning is.
Not sure what point you are making?
The Swiss Constitution allows foreigners to vote so Kantons and Communities can extend an invitation to foreigners to vote without asking their citizens.

The Constitution gives the right to all Swiss citizens to vote once they are 18 years old, it says nothing about taxpayers or not.

Foreigners who pay taxes have a good argument to request the right to vote but no legal right to demand the right to vote.

It is not possible for "foreigners to come here and impose our views on the locals" because in any democratic vote there are far more locals than others.
On average less than half Swiss voters turn out to vote so they do risk being outvoted due to their own lack of interest.
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  #233  
Old 14.10.2019, 14:32
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Re: Why is SVP popular?

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Such as?

(and please, no EU countries that allow other EU citizens to vote, which is like someone from Alabama being allowed to vote in NY)

I would go as far as to say that people with multiple citizenships be allowed to only vote in one country.

Tom
You will find an extremely long country list here.

Too long to conveniently cut and paste.
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  #234  
Old 14.10.2019, 18:08
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Re: Why is SVP popular?

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In my opinion the idea that you're entitled to anything in a foreign country is a consequence of an inflated ego and "me me me" mentality. In some ways it's downright disrespectful.
At best its a sign for succesful intergration if a foreigner wants to take part in the political process and cares for the future of his host country. Thats the point I would try to make if I were an expat.

For the worst case scenario read the SVP's stance on this topic.
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Old 14.10.2019, 18:21
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Re: Why is SVP popular?

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You will find an extremely long country list here.

Too long to conveniently cut and paste.
Not a very long list, with many restrictions.

"In most countries, suffrage, the right to vote, is generally limited to citizens of the country."

Tom
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  #236  
Old 14.10.2019, 18:23
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Re: Why is SVP popular?

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The Swiss Constitution allows foreigners to vote
Not on matters that matter, just local crap.

Tom
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Old 14.10.2019, 18:27
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Re: Why is SVP popular?

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At best its a sign for succesful intergration if a foreigner wants to take part in the political process and cares for the future of his host country. Thats the point I would try to make if I were an expat.

For the worst case scenario read the SVP's stance on this topic.
I agree that it shows the wish to integrate, but I also believe there should be a fairly long wait period before being allowed to vote. If it went with the C-permit I think it would be ok, at least on the kanton level if not the national. Then again 10 years for citizenship seems fair as well.

At the same time I've lived outside of my country where postal votes are not allowed for the last 10 years, so I'm disenfranchised. When living in other EU states I could vote local and EU but now I've lost that as well.
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  #238  
Old 14.10.2019, 18:36
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Re: Why is SVP popular?

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Not sure what point you are making?
The Swiss Constitution allows foreigners to vote so Kantons and Communities can extend an invitation to foreigners to vote without asking their citizens.

The Constitution gives the right to all Swiss citizens to vote once they are 18 years old, it says nothing about taxpayers or not.

Foreigners who pay taxes have a good argument to request the right to vote but no legal right to demand the right to vote.

It is not possible for "foreigners to come here and impose our views on the locals" because in any democratic vote there are far more locals than others.
On average less than half Swiss voters turn out to vote so they do risk being outvoted due to their own lack of interest.
I think the idea is pretty simple (and fair...if you ask me)- if you want to vote on more than (minor) local issues you have to be(come) a citizen of the country.
If not, you can live very well here as a permanent resident.
I'm not sure what are the Swiss supposed to do. There isn't perfect representation in any system, not even if you're a citizen. And one more thing, probably most of us would pay around 50% of their income to the taxman back home, with even less control on how are they spent than here, if you know what I mean. Of course, in an ideal world each voice should count etc etc etc.
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  #239  
Old 14.10.2019, 18:40
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Re: Why is SVP popular?

One of my main motivations to become Swiss was so that I could vote (and do my part to keep CH out of the EU).

Tom
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  #240  
Old 14.10.2019, 21:09
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Re: Why is SVP popular?

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I agree that it shows the wish to integrate, but I also believe there should be a fairly long wait period before being allowed to vote. If it went with the C-permit I think it would be ok, at least on the kanton level if not the national. Then again 10 years for citizenship seems fair as well.
Absolutely, especially with our direct democracy and the quite large percentage of foreigners. I wouldn't even agree with the c-permit.
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