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Old 14.10.2019, 21:28
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Re: Why is SVP popular?

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...I would go as far as to say that people with multiple citizenships be allowed to only vote in one country.
Don't your children have citizenship from at least three countries? In which country should they be "restricted" to voting? Should it change depending on where they reside? What if they reside in none of the countries for which they hold citizenship?
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  #242  
Old 14.10.2019, 22:20
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Re: Why is SVP popular?

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Don't your children have citizenship from at least three countries? In which country should they be "restricted" to voting? Should it change depending on where they reside? What if they reside in none of the countries for which they hold citizenship?
Yes. To the one in which they actually live. It is a rule that I personally have always abided.

Tom
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  #243  
Old 14.10.2019, 23:20
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Re: Why is SVP popular?

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Not sure what point you are making?
The Swiss Constitution allows foreigners to vote so Kantons and Communities can extend an invitation to foreigners to vote without asking their citizens.
You seem to be mixing things up. The federal constitution doesn't provide the option to allow foreigners to vote on the Cantonal and communal level, simply because it's out of scope. In fact it's the Cantons who transfer certain powers to the federation - regulating voting on the lower two levels isn't among them.
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Foreigners who pay taxes have a good argument to request the right to vote but no legal right to demand the right to vote.
The argument is basically "I pay therefore I get to vote". Consequentially, the more you pay the more your vote weighs - obviously an opinion from the darker past, from centuries ago. An approach that's utterly out of place in any democracy.
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  #244  
Old 14.10.2019, 23:20
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Re: Why is SVP popular?

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Not on matters that matter, just local crap.

Tom
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I think the idea is pretty simple (and fair...if you ask me)- if you want to vote on more than (minor) local issues you have to be(come) a citizen of the country.
So far the cantons of Jura and Neuchâtel grant foreigners the right to vote in cantonal elections.
In the canton of Neuchatel, foreigners have had the right to vote since 1849.
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  #245  
Old 15.10.2019, 01:38
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Re: Why is SVP popular?

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You seem to be mixing things up. The federal constitution doesn't provide the option to allow foreigners to vote on the Cantonal and communal level, simply because it's out of scope. In fact it's the Cantons who transfer certain powers to the federation - regulating voting on the lower two levels isn't among them.

The argument is basically "I pay therefore I get to vote". Consequentially, the more you pay the more your vote weights - obviously an opinion from the darker past, from centuries ago. An approach that's utterly out of place in any democracy.
Following your logic; if being a citizen gives you the right to vote then the longer you live the more your vote weighs
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  #246  
Old 15.10.2019, 09:48
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Re: Why is SVP popular?

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So far the cantons of Jura and Neuchâtel grant foreigners the right to vote in cantonal elections.
In the canton of Neuchatel, foreigners have had the right to vote since 1849.
But they can't vote on federal matters.

Tom
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  #247  
Old 15.10.2019, 10:22
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Re: Why is SVP popular?

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Being a tax payer doesn't magically make you a citizen. You wouldn't be drafted or expected to do civil service, so without the same obligations why would you expect to have the same rights?
Actually, this isn't entirely correct. One example is that if you are in possession of a driving licence which covers you for larger vehicles, your name is held at the local authorities as someone who would be drafted in to drive goods trucks and emergency vehicles in the event of a disaster.

I know this system exists because my name was one of them until I had to fight my case, arguing that it was just an anomaly of my UK licence and, actually, I don't have the foggiest idea how to drive a truck, nor was I licenced to drive one in the UK.

This rule applies to all residents, not just citizens of the country.
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  #248  
Old 15.10.2019, 11:28
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Re: Why is SVP popular?

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You are reaching very far in your assumption. Almost all students I know study and work, pay their taxes. Maybe it's been a while since you studied, but it is almost impossible to not have an income while studying, especially here where living costs are high (despite the low cost studies).
The user in question put in his profiel "country: Sweden". Its both entirely possible and normal to be a fulltime student not paying taxes in Scandinavian countries. You actually get paid to study there.

P.S: Your hotel analogy is idiotic. I am not a guest in a country if I have lived there for years. You are part of the society no matter if the right wing likes that or not and not matter if you have the right to vote or not.
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  #249  
Old 15.10.2019, 11:42
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Re: Why is SVP popular?

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Absolutely, especially with our direct democracy and the quite large percentage of foreigners. I wouldn't even agree with the c-permit.
Contrariwise I would say the quite large percentage of foreigners is an argument to give them the vote.
A quarter of the population has no say in how they are treated by the Government; that is certainly not fair.
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  #250  
Old 15.10.2019, 11:48
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Re: Why is SVP popular?

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Well no, I've been paying in full-time taxes for three years in this country (and for another seven years if you count my part time jobs back home) so I'm well aware of them. Taxes are also really low here compared to just about anywhere else..

Wars have been fought any number of reasons so I don't see how that in itself is an argument, my point is that the citizens of any country alone have the right to choose what civil rights and duties they share and with whom. That's the foundation of any nation state.

Being a tax payer doesn't magically make you a citizen, You wouldn't be drafted or expected to do civil service, so without the same obligations why would you expect to have the same rights?

In my opinion the idea that you're entitled to anything in a foreign country is a consequence of an inflated ego and "me me me" mentality. In some ways it's downright disrespectful.
Clutching at straws now
Ladies have the right to vote without being drafted or expected to do civil service so as they are the majority of Swiss voters then clearly there is no issue here.
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  #251  
Old 15.10.2019, 11:52
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Re: Why is SVP popular?

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Following your logic; if being a citizen gives you the right to vote then the longer you live the more your vote weighs
Not really, the status quo is a binary thing.
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Contrariwise I would say the quite large percentage of foreigners is an argument to give them the vote.
A quarter of the population has no say in how they are treated by the Government; that is certainly not fair.
Roughly half qualify for naturalisation, it's their choice.
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  #252  
Old 15.10.2019, 11:53
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Re: Why is SVP popular?

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You seem to be mixing things up. The federal constitution doesn't provide the option to allow foreigners to vote on the Cantonal and communal level, simply because it's out of scope. In fact it's the Cantons who transfer certain powers to the federation - regulating voting on the lower two levels isn't among them.

The argument is basically "I pay therefore I get to vote". Consequentially, the more you pay the more your vote weighs - obviously an opinion from the darker past, from centuries ago. An approach that's utterly out of place in any democracy.
I agree with this. Right to vote should be conditioned by permanence. Transitory guests will almost all vote against the local interests (or federal, same deal, it is too kind of the hosts to let Cc express themselves on local issues), me thinks. I consider that logical.
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  #253  
Old 15.10.2019, 12:24
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Re: Why is SVP popular?

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I agree with this. Right to vote should be conditioned by permanence. Transitory guests will almost all vote against the local interests (or federal, same deal, it is too kind of the hosts to let Cc express themselves on local issues), me thinks. I consider that logical.
I disagree.
1. Switzerland has a lot of "not so transitory" immigrants and they are certainly not "guests", but what? a third of the population? There are a lot of second and even third generation "foreigners" living in CH.

2. Switzerland is a confederation and has all sort of votes on national, cantonal and local level. I dont think foreigners should vote for anything on a national level as it touches a lot of areas like foreign policies that open up conflicts of interest. However: Why on earth should a person living in a commune, paying taxes there and being part of the local society not have a say on how to organize the trash collection or the local bus service? Thats pretty normal in the EU and has not really led to any revolutions or protests.
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  #254  
Old 15.10.2019, 12:30
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Re: Why is SVP popular?

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I disagree.
And I disagree with your disagree.

You want to vote? Become Swiss.

I did.

Tom
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  #255  
Old 15.10.2019, 12:44
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Re: Why is SVP popular?

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And I disagree with your disagree.

You want to vote? Become Swiss.

I did.

Tom
I agree with you disagreeing with him disagreeing.

Plus, this poster in question had been in CH temporarily and left, we are allowed the same assumptions as he does on another poster. Students not paying taxes since they are not working - the student is most probably not in Sweden but here, Trev. Here the student can work and pay taxes.

Lots of posters forget (?) the local optics - the voting is meant to not affect immediately, nobody is even counting on immediate changes. No matter how important the temporary guests feel, the vote will affect our life way later, when many guests are gone (like Trev). People rip here on how slowly things change in Switzerland ignoring the fact that exactly this principle makes the system they benefit from so stable. Which made them come here in the 1st place.

So I'd say - we are lucky to be allowed to vote on local issues without proving our permanence. You cannot in my home country, CH is progressive in this. I think it is a measure of good faith.
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  #256  
Old 15.10.2019, 12:54
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Re: Why is SVP popular?

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Lots of posters forget (?) the local optics - the voting is meant to not affect immediately, nobody is even counting on immediate changes. No matter how important the temporary guests feel, the vote will affect our life way later, when many guests are gone (like Trev). People rip here on how slowly things change in Switzerland ignoring the fact that exactly this principle makes the system they benefit from so stable. Which made them come here in the 1st place.
I think you are slightly misunderstanding the "speed of change thing" here. Things may be slow to get through the discussion, signature and proposal phase but once it goes to vote, especially at local level, things move pretty fast. Think about new school buildings, and other local infrastructure.

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So I'd say - we are lucky to be allowed to vote on local issues without proving our permanence. You cannot in my home country, CH is progressive in this. I think it is a measure of good faith.
Of course there is some proof of permanence required. On those applicable local votes: no residence permit - no vote. Nothing to do with "good faith".

Have a look at your local gemeinde website, there is tons of information about local issues.
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  #257  
Old 15.10.2019, 13:10
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Re: Why is SVP popular?

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I think you are slightly misunderstanding the "speed of change thing" here. Things may be slow to get through the discussion, signature and proposal phase but once it goes to vote, especially at local level, things move pretty fast. Think about new school buildings, and other local infrastructure.



Of course there is some proof of permanence required. On those applicable local votes: no residence permit - no vote. Nothing to do with "good faith".

Have a look at your local gemeinde website, there is tons of information about local issues.
That's not the question. Some were saying it is not enough and people should be allowed to vote federally. Some were saying that it's their right to vote locally since they don't feel like guests. I think to be able to vote on local issues while not being citizens is already a priviledge that doesn't exist where I am from. I think it is a pretty big risk and I don't think even C would be permanent enough for this. I do not think it's the taxes at all that inspired the locals to let new settlers have their say, there was a cash flow before. I think it is more progressive than many advanced societies, actually. Being a citizen show permanent motivation, language as integrative effort, understanding issues (not cosmetic ones like garbage collection). I have no idea about SVP agenda, btw. Nor do I know why they are popular, they seem different in quite a few issues than foreign conservative parties.
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  #258  
Old 15.10.2019, 13:23
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Re: Why is SVP popular?

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That's not the question. Some were saying it is not enough and people should be allowed to vote federally.
Nope the original grumble was about voting generally. The response was that, yes, in some cantons foreigners resident here can vote in local issues.

Whether or not people can vote federally is beside the point. There are a lot of European countries where resident foreigners can vote so it's not THAT unusual.


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Some were saying that it's their right to vote locally since they don't feel like guests. I think to be able to vote on local issues while not being citizens is already a privilege that doesn't exist where I am from.
So? It exists in plenty of other European countries - look at Marton's linked list.

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I think it is a pretty big risk and I don't think even C would be permanent enough for this. I do not think it's the taxes at all that inspired the locals to let new settlers have their say, there was a cash flow before.
Why wouldn't a C permit be enough? Lots of people are here for most of their lives on a C permit because they can't hold more than one passport. Yes, you can argue that's not showing commitment to Switzerland but perhaps it's the best solution if they still have affairs in their country of origin and giving up that citizenship will cause a problem for them and their family. It's not up to us to judge. It doesn't make them or their family any less of a part of this country, nor not as committed as someone who has been born here as a Swiss or become naturalised.

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Being a citizen shows permanent motivation, language as integrative effort, understanding issues (not cosmetic ones like garbage collection). I have no idea about SVP agenda, btw. Nor do I know why they are popular, they seem different in quite a few issues than foreign conservative parties.
You can be all of those things without being a Swiss citizen, although if you think garbage collection issues are "cosmetic" you might want to keep that to yourself .

What you are suggesting is a two-tier society.
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  #259  
Old 15.10.2019, 13:37
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Re: Why is SVP popular?

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I agree with you disagreeing with him disagreeing.

Plus, this poster in question had been in CH temporarily and left, we are allowed the same assumptions as he does on another poster. Students not paying taxes since they are not working - the student is most probably not in Sweden but here, Trev. Here the student can work and pay taxes.

Lots of posters forget (?) the local optics - the voting is meant to not affect immediately, nobody is even counting on immediate changes. No matter how important the temporary guests feel, the vote will affect our life way later, when many guests are gone (like Trev). People rip here on how slowly things change in Switzerland ignoring the fact that exactly this principle makes the system they benefit from so stable. Which made them come here in the 1st place.

So I'd say - we are lucky to be allowed to vote on local issues without proving our permanence. You cannot in my home country, CH is progressive in this. I think it is a measure of good faith.
"the vote will affect our life way later, when many guests are gone " then take another vote
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Old 15.10.2019, 14:34
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Re: Why is SVP popular?

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Whether or not people can vote federally is beside the point. There are a lot of European countries where resident foreigners can vote so it's not THAT unusual.
Apples and oranges.

This is a direct consequence of EU-citizenship; as you certainly know Switzerland isn't part of the EU thus it's an moot invalid point. Or an outright contrarian one for a good many people.
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Why wouldn't a C permit be enough? Lots of people are here for most of their lives on a C permit because they can't hold more than one passport. Yes, you can argue that's not showing commitment to Switzerland but perhaps it's the best solution if they still have affairs in their country of origin and giving up that citizenship will cause a problem for them and their family. It's not up to us to judge.
It's not a moral question, there's zero need for that reproach.

Choices have consequences, they're the problem of the one making the decision, nobody else's. They can always change theirs.

Last edited by Urs Max; 15.10.2019 at 14:49. Reason: invalid, not moot
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