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  #261  
Old 15.10.2019, 13:38
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Re: Why is SVP popular?

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Not really, the status quo is a binary thing.

Roughly half qualify for naturalisation, it's their choice.
Either you are a taxpayer, or not - also binary
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  #262  
Old 15.10.2019, 13:46
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Re: Why is SVP popular?

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Apples and oranges.

This is a direct consequence of EU-citizenship; as you certainly know Switzerland isn't part of the EU thus it's a moot point. Or an outright contrarian one for a good many people.
That's why I was careful to say "European countries" in my post, and not "EU countries".
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  #263  
Old 15.10.2019, 13:50
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Re: Why is SVP popular?

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Apples and oranges.

This is a direct consequence of EU-citizenship; as you certainly know Switzerland isn't part of the EU thus it's a moot point. Or an outright contrarian one for a good many people.
It looks to me that people forget they came here primarily because it is UNLIKE the rest of Europe. So to complain about it and claiming an entitled right to change it here to resemble the rest of Europe is illogical to me. I never hear anyone from a very small/poor/unstable country, either, expressing their entitlement to the local system adjusting to their needs. Most foreigners I know here are grateful guests, most locals I know are politically active and practicing their rightful entitlement. The hysterics seems to only exist online or in media and I actually admire the local system being open to a debate even with political extremes instead of shutting it down, as seems to be the suggestion of a few here.
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  #264  
Old 15.10.2019, 13:58
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Re: Why is SVP popular?

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That's why I was careful to say "European countries" in my post, and not "EU countries".
So what.

Are you going to argue next that CH should become a kingdom as it's such a common form of state in Europe?
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  #265  
Old 15.10.2019, 14:05
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Re: Why is SVP popular?

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It looks to me that people forget they came here primarily because it is UNLIKE the rest of Europe. So to complain about it and claiming an entitled right to change it here to resemble the rest of Europe is illogical to me. I never hear anyone from a very small/poor/unstable country, either, expressing their entitlement to the local system adjusting to their needs. Most foreigners I know here are grateful guests, most locals I know are politically active and practicing their rightful entitlement. The hysterics seems to only exist online or in media and I actually admire the local system being open to a debate even with political extremes instead of shutting it down, as seems to be the suggestion of a few here.
Just wow. Is that how you really think or are you just going all out trying to win the thread?

"Grateful guests". WTF?

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So what.

Are you going to argue next that CH should become a kingdom as it's such a common form of state in Europe?
No, why would I?

I think the point has been resoundingly lost somewhere along the line. All I was trying to demonstrate was that it's not THAT unusual for countries all around the world to give settled foreigners the right to vote in varying capacities. EU/Europe/ROW, whatever.

Switzerland does it to a certain degree, too. Nothing to do with people feeling entitled or whatever batshit crazy reasoning is going on in this thread.

No idea why this is triggering people left, right and centre but it is what it is.
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  #266  
Old 15.10.2019, 14:08
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Re: Why is SVP popular?

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It looks to me that people forget they came here primarily because it is UNLIKE the rest of Europe. So to complain about it and claiming an entitled right to change it here to resemble the rest of Europe is illogical to me. I never hear anyone from a very small/poor/unstable country, either, expressing their entitlement to the local system adjusting to their needs. Most foreigners I know here are grateful guests, most locals I know are politically active and practicing their rightful entitlement. The hysterics seems to only exist online or in media and I actually admire the local system being open to a debate even with political extremes instead of shutting it down, as seems to be the suggestion of a few here.
"most locals I know are politically active and practicing their rightful entitlement" You must know an interesting subset! The reality here is on average voter turnout for most elections is less than half; often down to a third.
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  #267  
Old 15.10.2019, 14:11
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Re: Why is SVP popular?

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"most locals I know are politically active and practicing their rightful entitlement" You must know an interesting subset! The reality here is on average voter turnout for most elections is less than half; often down to a third.
Then I know people who care to show up, obviously. Maybe smaller communities have a different sense of civic duty? Not sure.

Your reality might be closer to the average stats.
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  #268  
Old 15.10.2019, 14:36
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Re: Why is SVP popular?

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There are a lot of European countries where resident foreigners can vote so it's not THAT unusual.
No, there are not, unless they are from other EU countries.

Tom
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  #269  
Old 15.10.2019, 14:38
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Re: Why is SVP popular?

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I think the point has been resoundingly lost somewhere along the line. All I was trying to demonstrate was that it's not THAT unusual for countries all around the world to give settled foreigners the right to vote in varying capacities. EU/Europe/ROW, whatever.
Except you didn't. WRT EU all EU citizens are nationals; a German voting in France on the local level, if they can, does so based on their EU citizenship.
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Switzerland does it to a certain degree, too. Nothing to do with people feeling entitled or whatever batshit crazy reasoning is going on in this thread.
These are two distinct points. WRT the second you seem to not pay attention, clearly Treverus for example thinks he is entitled.
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No idea why this is triggering people left, right and centre but it is what it is.
Not triggered, I'm simply using a similarly arbitrarily chosen point to make an argument. The intent is to demonstrate that neither yours nor mine hold any merit exactly because of that arbitrariness.
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  #270  
Old 15.10.2019, 14:42
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Re: Why is SVP popular?

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No, there are not, unless they are from other EU countries.

Tom
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Denmark
(EU member) Voting and eligibility rights were granted to Nordic Passport Union country citizens with a 3 years residence condition for municipal and county elections in 1977. These rights were extended to all foreign residents in 1981. In 1995, the 3 years residence requirement was abolished for EU residents, in conformity with the European legislation, and also for Nordic residents.[48]
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Finland
(EU member) Voting and eligibility rights were granted to Nordic Passport Union country citizens without residence condition for municipal elections in 1981. These rights were extended to all foreign residents in 1991 with a 2 years residence condition. In 1995 (Law 365/95, confirmed by Electoral Law 714/1998), the residence requirement was abolished for EU residents, in conformity with the European legislation.[48] Section 14, al. 2 of the 2000 Constitution of Finland states that "Every Finnish citizen and every foreigner permanently resident in Finland, having attained eighteen years of age, has the right to vote in municipal elections and municipal referendums, as provided by an Act. Provisions on the right to otherwise participate in municipal government are laid down by an Act."[51]
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Greece
(EU member) EU residents have voting and eligibility rights for local and European elections.

In 2010, these rights were extended for local elections to non-EU foreigners. 12,762 foreign residents out of a potential electorate of 266,250 actually registered to vote for the November 2010 local elections.[60]
I only scrolled down thus far.

Having said all that, I'm guessing the numbers aren't massive anyway.

The only advantage of being EU is that you can vote sooner in those countries that abolished the 3 year rule for EU citizens, or at least that's how I understand it.
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  #271  
Old 15.10.2019, 14:58
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Re: Why is SVP popular?

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Either you are a taxpayer, or not - also binary
Most everybody who's done any kind of business in CH paid CH taxes. But frankly, those 0.0003 Rappen VAT for the bubblegum your parents bought during their visit don't really count.
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  #272  
Old 15.10.2019, 15:03
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Re: Why is SVP popular?

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No, there are not, unless they are from other EU countries.

Tom
Iceland
Norway
Switzerland
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  #273  
Old 15.10.2019, 15:37
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Re: Why is SVP popular?

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Iceland
Norway
Switzerland
Three is not 'a lot'.

Tom
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  #274  
Old 15.10.2019, 20:34
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Re: Why is SVP popular?

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Clutching at straws now
Ladies have the right to vote without being drafted or expected to do civil service so as they are the majority of Swiss voters then clearly there is no issue here.
The point is that military/civil service is an example of a duty that comes with the citizenship, though it is true that women are like in most other countries exempt. Personally I am quite happy to dodge the "Wehrpflichtersatz" that would be due, were I a citizen.

Granted, Switzerland doesn't have as many duties as for instance the U.S. with its worldwide taxation and many of those they did have, have gone out of practice (Amtszwang, Geschworenergerichte for example).
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  #275  
Old 15.10.2019, 21:14
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Re: Why is SVP popular?

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The point is that military/civil service is an example of a duty that comes with the citizenship, though it is true that women are like in most other countries exempt. Personally I am quite happy to dodge the "Wehrpflichtersatz" that would be due, were I a citizen.

Granted, Switzerland doesn't have as many duties as for instance the U.S. with its worldwide taxation and many of those they did have, have gone out of practice (Amtszwang, Geschworenergerichte for example).
Luckily in Switzerland, there are usually cash-based solutions.
Males of military age who are unable to perform their civic duties pay an additional tax.
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  #276  
Old 15.10.2019, 21:23
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Re: Why is SVP popular?

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Then I know people who care to show up, obviously. Maybe smaller communities have a different sense of civic duty? Not sure.

Your reality might be closer to the average stats.
This

And furthermore , people who take an interest in the world in general are by consequence more likely to also be interested in politics to some degree.

We tend to surround ourselves with friends with whom we have something in common.

So if many of Marton‘s friends don’t care, maybe the problem is with the type of people he choses to hang out with
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  #277  
Old 15.10.2019, 21:31
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Re: Why is SVP popular?

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Why on earth should a person living in a commune, paying taxes there and being part of the local society not have a say on how to organize the trash collection or the local bus service? Thats pretty normal in the EU and has not really led to any revolutions or protests.
An ironic choice seeing that local bus services are IMHO better organized than in any other European country that i know
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  #278  
Old 15.10.2019, 21:37
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Re: Why is SVP popular?

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This

And furthermore , people who take an interest in the world in general are by consequence more likely to also be interested in politics to some degree.

We tend to surround ourselves with friends with whom we have something in common.

So if many of Marton‘s friends don’t care, maybe the problem is with the type of people he choses to hang out with
Possibly I do make unfounded boasts from time to time but I never have claimed the majority of all Swiss voters are numbered amongst my friends!
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  #279  
Old 15.10.2019, 21:46
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Re: Why is SVP popular?

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This

And furthermore , people who take an interest in the world in general are by consequence more likely to also be interested in politics to some degree.

We tend to surround ourselves with friends with whom we have something in common.

So if many of Marton‘s friends don’t care, maybe the problem is with the type of people he choses to hang out with
How many friends and colleagues actually discuss their voting habits? We just did our voting but I didn’t feel the urge to ring all my Swiss friends and call it in.

By the way, I understood marton was talking about ‘the average Swiss voter’ rather than his friend network. Wasn’t it MC who had her Swiss friends confirming their voting habits to her?
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  #280  
Old 15.10.2019, 22:11
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Re: Why is SVP popular?

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How many friends and colleagues actually discuss their voting habits? We just did our voting but I didn’t feel the urge to ring all my Swiss friends and call it in.

By the way, I understood marton was talking about ‘the average Swiss voter’ rather than his friend network. Wasn’t it MC who had her Swiss friends confirming their voting habits to her?
Ahem , no

Of course most people don’t broadcast what the do at the ballotbox. But I think for most people i count as my friends i think i know where they stand politically. At some point people do talk and if they don’t they often drop hints, sometimes unwittingly .

And actually Marton was questioning MusicChick’s statement by saying that the population on average don’t confirm MC’s observation. In other words he was assuming that MC’s friends must represent an average sample of the population. Seeing people chose their friends , nobody’s friends are an average sampling of the population . A somewhat fundamental error I think coming from someone whose arguments often revolve around statistics .
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