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  #21  
Old 27.05.2018, 21:49
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Re: Why is SVP popular?

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The posters also more than racist. If you imagine them in black and white then they are reminders of Hitler and the Nazi propoganda
You really do want your red blobs back, don´t you?
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  #22  
Old 27.05.2018, 22:33
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Re: Why is SVP popular?

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The posters also more than racist. If you imagine them in black and white then they are reminders of Hitler and the Nazi propoganda
I'm no expert in this field, so I googled "Hitler Nazi propaganda" and paged through the images, and read some of the links. Some of those images and their messages looked disturbingly familiar.

I also found this blog entry https://mindinflux.wordpress.com/201...nd-propaganda/ which points out - see also the comment section - at least some parallel between the Nazi drive to exterminate the disabled and deformed, on the basis that they cost society too much, and the benefits cuts in the UK.

The then leader of the SVP, Christoph Blocher, made the use of the word "Scheininvalide" (fake invalid) popular. Officially, this was to name those who were defrauding the system. The word, though, went on to be used to discredit people who have, or claim to have, or whose doctors attest to their having, disabilities which cannot be immediately and obviously seen.

I think Edwin's list is a good one to indicate some of the SVP's basic tenet. In accordance with one of those ideas, namely that the SVP holds that people should exercise responsibility for their own support, there have been cuts in disability pensions and supplementary benefits, here, too. Some have had their pensions struck or reduced.

For many people too ill to earn their own living, the Swiss bureaucratic hurdles to claiming a pension and other types of support are insurmountable (for the same reasons as earning their living is out of their reach), and their health-care and home-care needs simply do not get met, despite concerted efforts by the person who is ill and of his/her doctors to set out the truth of the impairments and healt deficits.

By no means do I think this is necessarily better elsewhere. See for example these reports from the UK:
https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...orking-britain
and
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a8119286.html

I knew a really nice Swiss person with a professional qualification and high personal ethical code who, while very ill and embroiled in this struggle for help, with doctors, nurses and forms and doctors' reports, was contacted by a former work colleague, enthusiastic in the SVP doctrine, telling the ill person to stop faking and return to work because it was a duty to the tax-payers not to cost more than the next person. A few months later, the ill person committed suicide, having informed friends that there was no way forward without sufficient help, and that the slur from the SVP colleague was too much to bear.

Here, for those who read German, is another blog along the same lines, about Switzerland, and how people dispair at being treated as citizens less worth than the healthy folk.
https://www.infosperber.ch/Politik/B...achsten-sparen
Here, too, see also the comments.

Last edited by doropfiz; 27.05.2018 at 22:54. Reason: adding a link about disability, suicidality and despair in Switzerland
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  #23  
Old 28.05.2018, 01:21
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Re: Why is SVP popular?

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SVP were canvassing on the high street. One approached me, and I calmly looked at him and said "Ich bin ein Ausländer". He visibly paled...

I'm a fairly right-wing chap, but I don't approve of the SVP. Their posters were clearly racist. That puts them outside of acceptable society.
I'm usually glad when they do these horrible posters as it puts many people off voting for a SVP objective who were insecure before the posters came out
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Old 28.05.2018, 08:04
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Re: Why is SVP popular?

They’re like Daily Mail readers on speed. My homework pack arrived the other day. Can’t find a single thing they are for that I agree with in the referendum topics.

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Against bigger spending on Welfare.
Against expansion of governmental services.
Pro self-responsibility
Against the EU
Against closer involvement inside UN, NATO, Schengen, EU etc..
Against Swiss Army inventions abroad.

These things appeal to the Swiss since a large group of them believes in self responsibility and that the state is not a supporting mechanism but more guiding mechanism which does allow for the people to be heard through referenda.
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Old 28.05.2018, 08:06
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Re: Why is SVP popular?

Yes. This black with red on the propoganda posters seems to be common.Red=blood=fear. And I guess most propoganda in posters looks similar
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I'm no expert in this field, so I googled "Hitler Nazi propaganda" and paged through the images, and read some of the links. Some of those images and their messages looked disturbingly familiar.

I also found this blog entry https://mindinflux.wordpress.com/201...nd-propaganda/ which points out - see also the comment section - at least some parallel between the Nazi drive to exterminate the disabled and deformed, on the basis that they cost society too much, and the benefits cuts in the UK.

The then leader of the SVP, Christoph Blocher, made the use of the word "Scheininvalide" (fake invalid) popular. Officially, this was to name those who were defrauding the system. The word, though, went on to be used to discredit people who have, or claim to have, or whose doctors attest to their having, disabilities which cannot be immediately and obviously seen.

I think Edwin's list is a good one to indicate some of the SVP's basic tenet. In accordance with one of those ideas, namely that the SVP holds that people should exercise responsibility for their own support, there have been cuts in disability pensions and supplementary benefits, here, too. Some have had their pensions struck or reduced.

For many people too ill to earn their own living, the Swiss bureaucratic hurdles to claiming a pension and other types of support are insurmountable (for the same reasons as earning their living is out of their reach), and their health-care and home-care needs simply do not get met, despite concerted efforts by the person who is ill and of his/her doctors to set out the truth of the impairments and healt deficits.

By no means do I think this is necessarily better elsewhere. See for example these reports from the UK:
https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...orking-britain
and
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a8119286.html

I knew a really nice Swiss person with a professional qualification and high personal ethical code who, while very ill and embroiled in this struggle for help, with doctors, nurses and forms and doctors' reports, was contacted by a former work colleague, enthusiastic in the SVP doctrine, telling the ill person to stop faking and return to work because it was a duty to the tax-payers not to cost more than the next person. A few months later, the ill person committed suicide, having informed friends that there was no way forward without sufficient help, and that the slur from the SVP colleague was too much to bear.

Here, for those who read German, is another blog along the same lines, about Switzerland, and how people dispair at being treated as citizens less worth than the healthy folk.
https://www.infosperber.ch/Politik/B...achsten-sparen
Here, too, see also the comments.
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  #26  
Old 28.05.2018, 09:48
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Re: Why is SVP popular?

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You really do want your red blobs back, don´t you?
He does have a point though. Some SVP posters at least border on racism (is there such a word as racistoid?). And the similarity in style between some Nazi posters and the SVP's can't honestly be overlooked imho.

It's also no coincidence SVP secretary general Martin Baltisser und his deputy Silvia Bär have been convicted for racial discrimination, and they're far from the only ones. The fish starts to smell at the head.
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  #27  
Old 28.05.2018, 10:03
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Re: Why is SVP popular?

Political posters are meant to be eye-catching, provocative and to get people talking. I think they have succeeded in that area

As for why is SVP popular, you have to look at the demographics. The French part is overwhelmingly Liberal, and the German part conservative (excluding big cities). The German part is larger, so there you have it.

Personally, I find it refreshing to live in a conservative country in a time when Liberals mostly control the rest of Western Europe.
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Old 28.05.2018, 10:06
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Re: Why is SVP popular?

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Against bigger spending on Welfare.
Against expansion of governmental services.
Pro self-responsibility
Against the EU
Against closer involvement inside UN, NATO, Schengen, EU etc..
Against Swiss Army inventions abroad.

These things appeal to the Swiss since a large group of them believes in self responsibility and that the state is not a supporting mechanism but more guiding mechanism which does allow for the people to be heard through referenda.
Take out the anti-immigrant stuff and basically all very good positions to take.
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Old 28.05.2018, 10:15
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Re: Why is SVP popular?

The SVP has at least two faces:
- the traditional SVP, a conservative party with pretty much the same values as the British tories. That's the SVP you find in the countryside, especially central Switzerland like Schwyz.

- the populists. They started when Blocher became big and basically highjacked the old conservative party and turned it into something entirely different. First in Zurich city, then the canton and later on all major towns of Switzerland. That's where the open racism, xenophobia and anti-Muslim stuff is happening. Even Trump, who normally insists that he invented the world..., openly admits that Blocher was an inspiration for him.


For me is the second part so obvious and loud that the party is outside of the acceptable political spectrum. But then again did I work in Zurich, where their absolute finest are based... a farmer in central Switzerland always has and always will vote for them. Because they represent his values.


On a side not on these positions: The SVP fights for a lean state and makes a huge fuzz about every public spending... with one massive exception - they are traditionally the rural party of Switzerland and fight as hard as they can for more subsidies for farmers, less foreign agricultural imports and essentially the opposite in every way from what they claim their position is for any other industry or sector.


Bottom line "We want a free market for everyone except of our core voters who deserve protection"
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Old 28.05.2018, 10:53
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Re: Why is SVP popular?

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On a side not on these positions: The SVP fights for a lean state and makes a huge fuzz about every public spending... with one massive exception - they are traditionally the rural party of Switzerland and fight as hard as they can for more subsidies for farmers, less foreign agricultural imports and essentially the opposite in every way from what they claim their position is for any other industry or sector.


Bottom line "We want a free market for everyone except of our core voters who deserve protection"

This 1000 times. I always find it surprising that this isn't talked about more in swiss politics. The amount of power the farmer's lobby wields in Bern is almost equal to the defense budget lobby in the states.

Last edited by Downerbuzz; 28.05.2018 at 11:22.
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Old 28.05.2018, 11:16
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Re: Why is SVP popular?

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They’re like Daily Mail readers on speed. My homework pack arrived the other day. Can’t find a single thing they are for that I agree with in the referendum topics.
Just a guess, but you're probably not their targeted demographic.
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Old 28.05.2018, 11:17
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Re: Why is SVP popular?

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This 1000 times. I always find it surprising that this isn't talked about more in swiss politics. The amount of power the farmer's lobby weilds in Bern is almost equal to the defense budget lobby in the states.
Farming in Switzerland is a topic in of itself. There are pros and cons. On the one hand, as you pointed out, farmers are highly "Protected" class, untouchable, subsidies, etc. Which we as taxpayers can easily complain about, why should our tax money go to support them, and why should we pay 10x the cost of meat compared to neighbor countries.

On the flip side, the meat we buy here are from grass-fed, free-range cows and animals, not the boxed in and corn-fed cows in eg. Germany. Plus CH is very dependent on this for the milk, chocolate and cheese industry. Also consider the farmland is protected to conserve the environment and keep CH a scenic country for tourism, etc.

So there are two side of the coin. If you want to spin SVP as a "Green" party, there are plenty of good arguments above.
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  #33  
Old 28.05.2018, 11:20
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Re: Why is SVP popular?

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The SVP has at least two faces:
- the traditional SVP, a conservative party with pretty much the same values as the British tories. That's the SVP you find in the countryside, especially central Switzerland like Schwyz.

- the populists. They started when Blocher became big and basically highjacked the old conservative party and turned it into something entirely different. First in Zurich city, then the canton and later on all major towns of Switzerland. That's where the open racism, xenophobia and anti-Muslim stuff is happening. Even Trump, who normally insists that he invented the world..., openly admits that Blocher was an inspiration for him.


For me is the second part so obvious and loud that the party is outside of the acceptable political spectrum. But then again did I work in Zurich, where their absolute finest are based... a farmer in central Switzerland always has and always will vote for them. Because they represent his values.


On a side not on these positions: The SVP fights for a lean state and makes a huge fuzz about every public spending... with one massive exception - they are traditionally the rural party of Switzerland and fight as hard as they can for more subsidies for farmers, less foreign agricultural imports and essentially the opposite in every way from what they claim their position is for any other industry or sector.


Bottom line "We want a free market for everyone except of our core voters who deserve protection"
This I think best answers my question. Thanks.
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  #34  
Old 28.05.2018, 11:27
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Re: Why is SVP popular?

When I first came to Switzerland I was shocked at the posters - I consider them to be offensive. I thought the minaret ban vote was absurd.

After what has happened in Europe in the last 5 years I have been far more outraged at the lack of actual democracy in other countries and even it's suppression.

As long as Switzerland pushes for more democracy and not less I will absolutely support that.
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Old 28.05.2018, 11:36
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Re: Why is SVP popular?

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When I first came to Switzerland I was shocked at the posters - I consider them to be offensive. I thought the minaret ban vote was absurd.

After what has happened in Europe in the last 5 years I have been far more outraged at the lack of actual democracy in other countries and even it's suppression.

As long as Switzerland pushes for more democracy and not less I will absolutely support that.


The problems other countries have don't make the minaret ban less absurd. And racism stays racism no matter how many percent of a population support it.


The simple problem is that Switzerland makes it so hard to change the nationality even if you were born in CH or lived there for a very long time. If the 30% or so foreign population could have a vote as they do in other countries would the populists restrain themselves to a limit that is democratically acceptable. The SVP in particular is not pushing for more democracy - they try to keep everyone they don't like out of the political system to defend their power.
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Old 28.05.2018, 11:42
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Re: Why is SVP popular?

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The problems other countries have don't make the minaret ban less absurd.And racism stays racism no matter how many percent of a population support it.
In a world where you think Marx was misunderstood and Marxism harmless I disagree - words have and are being twisted.

Merkel ignored any form of democracy - parliamentary or national - in the largest country in Europe and we know the cost for future generations of Europe in terms of crime and society will be enormous.


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The simple problem is that Switzerland makes it so hard to change the nationality even if you were born in CH or lived there for a very long time. If the 30% or so foreign population could have a vote as they do in other countries would the populists restrain themselves to a limit that is democratically acceptable. The SVP in particular is not pushing for more democracy - they try to keep everyone they don't like out of the political system to defend their power.
You , like I are a guest in this land - I absolutely support the right of the gemeinde to vet any potential citzens. Who else is better placed to determine their value to future generations ??
The rest of the world could learn an awful lot from Switzerland - and in the case of Singapore they are going far further.
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Old 28.05.2018, 11:43
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Re: Why is SVP popular?

Having lived in the same small town since I got here, I realize that political stance has much to do with class and sector alliances. For example small businessmen and craftsmen in the town congregate with each other at the Gewerbeverein, and there exists a subtle pressure to identify with the SVP, as it is perceived to stand for "swiss ideals".
The bigger the business gets, the more the pressure to lean towards the FDP, which supports bigger development projects which require a re-sorting of say, zoning of land from agricultural to residential , and thus building.
Just saying, there is a lot of social control behind the feeling of belonging to a political party. One is seen and thus behaves in a way that leads to the least social friction.
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Old 28.05.2018, 11:47
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Re: Why is SVP popular?

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The simple problem is that Switzerland makes it so hard to change the nationality even if you were born in CH or lived there for a very long time.
That's one of the best thing about CH, they make you earn your passport instead of just handing them out.
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  #39  
Old 28.05.2018, 11:51
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Re: Why is SVP popular?

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Bottom line "We want a free market for everyone except of our core voters who deserve protection"
That pretty much sums up every party anywhere in Europe.
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Old 28.05.2018, 11:52
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Re: Why is SVP popular?

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The simple problem is that Switzerland makes it so hard to change the nationality even if you were born in CH or lived there for a very long time. If the 30% or so foreign population could have a vote as they do in other countries would the populists restrain themselves to a limit that is democratically acceptable.
So you are in favor of letting in more foreigners and allowing them to vote so that your preferred party can get elected? I think I'd prefer to let the Swiss decide themselves how to steer their country. Alot of other countries have already been hijacked by Liberals in exactly that way.
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