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  #41  
Old 28.05.2018, 10:52
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Re: Why is SVP popular?

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In a world where you think Marx was misunderstood and Marxism harmless I disagree - words have and are being twisted.

Merkel ignored any form of democracy - parliamentary or national - in the largest country in Europe and we know the cost for future generations of Europe in terms of crime and society will be enormous.
I have no idea what Ms Merkel has to do with the simple fact that there are no minarets in Switzerland. It was and always has been a non-issue that kept the public discussion busy for a year or so. Because the SVP likes nothing more than to bash Muslims. Fear mongering is the most efficient way for them to get votes.

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You , like I are a guest in this land - I absolutely support the right of the gemeinde to vet any potential citzens. Who else is better placed to determine their value to future generations ??
The rest of the world could learn an awful lot from Switzerland - and in the case of Singapore they are going far further.
The system with the public debate as used in central Switzerland simply invites abuse. It puts the immigrant into a position where he for years should rather not consider himself an equal part of society and fight for his rights, but rather shut up and make sure he does not annoy any neighbours who would otherwise cause trouble when he wants to get the passport. Which they will anyways if his name ends on -ic.


I have no idea what you are talking about when it comes to Singapore, but simply put: They have a system based on clear cut factors. They let people in who are good for their country and turn down the ones who are not. That's centrally managed by professionals and not down to votes by your neighbours. I became a permanent resident after 2 years and could have gotten the passport after 4 or 5, frankly don't remember. The system there is logical, stringent and fast. Pretty much the opposite of the Swiss one.
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  #42  
Old 28.05.2018, 11:56
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Re: Why is SVP popular?

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They’re like Daily Mail readers on speed. My homework pack arrived the other day. Can’t find a single thing they are for that I agree with in the referendum topics.
That would be your first one then?
Congrats! Join the club of "Basler", doing development assistance in Zurich

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Farming in Switzerland is a topic in of itself. There are pros and cons. On the one hand, as you pointed out, farmers are highly "Protected" class, untouchable, subsidies, etc. Which we as taxpayers can easily complain about, why should our tax money go to support them, and why should we pay 10x the cost of meat compared to neighbor countries.

On the flip side, the meat we buy here are from grass-fed, free-range cows and animals, not the boxed in and corn-fed cows in eg. Germany. Plus CH is very dependent on this for the milk, chocolate and cheese industry. Also consider the farmland is protected to conserve the environment and keep CH a scenic country for tourism, etc.

So there are two side of the coin. If you want to spin SVP as a "Green" party, there are plenty of good arguments above.
It's not only that. It is also all the land in the mountains. If those farmers had to make money on what they do up there, they would have died out long ago.
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  #43  
Old 28.05.2018, 12:41
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Re: Why is SVP popular?

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It's not only that. It is also all the land in the mountains. If those farmers had to make money on what they do up there, they would have died out long ago.

I am sorry to break that bubble but it is simply not true that everything in CH is gras fed, free range and bio by definition. And those evil indoor farms which only exist in the EU? Reality check: Most beef in CH is raised the very same way. In CH does a cow not even need to get hay in the box, but can be kept on naked concrete.... Don't take it from me, believe Kassensturz instead
https://www.srf.ch/sendungen/kassens...s-noch-sonne-2


Those chicken raised for the cheaper Migros products have recently been in the news to not really be that happy after all. The differences to the EU are minimal - in some cases slightly better, in other cases slightly worse. Here is some easy to digest info: http://www.20min.ch/schweiz/news/sto...Leben-15720250


I am always surprised how easily people take the marketing bullshit about Swiss agricultural products as facts. Are there honest and great products available? Sure. But the prepacked supermarket meat is probably just as bad as everywhere else in Europe. They are just way more expensive thanks to the laws the SVP has designed to protect Swiss producers. And no, not just those that keep the mountains lovely, but the meat factories just as well... the killer argument why the products are so expensive is that it is all for the Swiss environment. Which is simply factually not true. But it is one of these truths people rather don't want to hear about. Its much more comforting to believe your steak was once up on some sunny alm than in some concrete box eating dry food.
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  #44  
Old 28.05.2018, 12:47
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Re: Why is SVP popular?

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The simple problem is that Switzerland makes it so hard to change the nationality even if you were born in CH or lived there for a very long time. If the 30% or so foreign population could have a vote as they do in other countries would the populists restrain themselves to a limit that is democratically acceptable. The SVP in particular is not pushing for more democracy - they try to keep everyone they don't like out of the political system to defend their power.
They like to keep the power to the people who's country it is, many more countries should do so. If only it would be to avoid party's like DENK in the Netherlands, who are closely tied to the AKP from Turkey and do not vote in the interest of the Netherlands, but they do vote in the interest of Turkey and in no way support whatever values as being held by the original dutch population.

In the Netherlands everybody who is legal in the Netherlands for at least 5 years (including refugees and international students) may vote in local elections, for national elections a Dutch nationality is demanded which in my opinion is handed out like candy to large specific groups. I always have despised this system.
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Old 28.05.2018, 12:57
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Re: Why is SVP popular?

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They like to keep the power to the people who's country it is, many more countries should do so. If only it would be to avoid party's like DENK in the Netherlands, who are closely tied to the AKP from Turkey and do not vote in the interest of the Netherlands, but they do vote in the interest of Turkey and in no way support whatever values as being held by the original dutch population.
And then they say that these people are just as Dutch as anyone else is!
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  #46  
Old 28.05.2018, 13:08
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Re: Why is SVP popular?

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I have no idea what Ms Merkel has to do with the simple fact that there are no minarets in Switzerland.
There certainly ARE minarets in Switzerland.

Tom
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  #47  
Old 28.05.2018, 13:11
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Re: Why is SVP popular?

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And then they say that these people are just as Dutch as anyone else is!
Left socialist party's have been trying to give more and more people voting rights over the years because it would benefit them, however the "newcomers" now have so many votes to give that they can get their own party's that support their way of thinking and their traditions into parliament.
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Old 28.05.2018, 13:15
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Re: Why is SVP popular?

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Left socialist party's have been trying to give more and more people voting rights over the years because it would benefit them, however the "newcomers" now have so many votes to give that they can get their own party's that support their way of thinking and their traditions into parliament.
Furthermore, it is a mistake to assume immigrants are largely left wing.
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Old 28.05.2018, 13:20
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Re: Why is SVP popular?

SVP is the party of Donald Trump if he were were Swiss. Which is why so many SVP supporters love the Drumphster. Let that sink in for a moment. Groan me all you want but its true.
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Old 28.05.2018, 13:28
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Re: Why is SVP popular?

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Furthermore, it is a mistake to assume immigrants are largely left wing.
Expats who come somewhere to work are diverse in their interest and thus diverse in political interest, refugees and students mainly vote (like most people) for their own interest bringing them to the left party's since they do not force them to work by maintaining an incredible generous welfare system or give them as cheap as possible housing/healthcare and whatever.

In the Netherlands there are numerous situations where it gives a higher Nett income by staying in social welfare above accepting a job. living on welfare is almost considered a profession on its own in the Netherlands.
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Old 28.05.2018, 13:29
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Re: Why is SVP popular?

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SVP is the party of Donald Trump if he were were Swiss. Which is why so many SVP supporters love the Drumphster. Let that sink in for a moment. Groan me all you want but its true.
I do not love Trump, but I think he's a preferred choice above Hilary, and besides that he actually is just keeping promises he made during elections. Maybe even up to a level unbeaten by most or all previous presidents.
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  #52  
Old 28.05.2018, 13:35
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Re: Why is SVP popular?

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They like to keep the power to the people who's country it is, many more countries should do so. If only it would be to avoid party's like DENK in the Netherlands, who are closely tied to the AKP from Turkey and do not vote in the interest of the Netherlands, but they do vote in the interest of Turkey and in no way support whatever values as being held by the original dutch population.

In the Netherlands everybody who is legal in the Netherlands for at least 5 years (including refugees and international students) may vote in local elections, for national elections a Dutch nationality is demanded which in my opinion is handed out like candy to large specific groups. I always have despised this system.
I totally see your point and absolutely understand the current mess of Erdogan's politics targeting European Turks.

But, beg my pardon, shouldn't paying tax give you some (tiny) sort of a "say" on how it is spent?
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Old 28.05.2018, 13:38
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Re: Why is SVP popular?

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Left socialist party's have been trying to give more and more people voting rights over the years because it would benefit them, however the "newcomers" now have so many votes to give that they can get their own party's that support their way of thinking and their traditions into parliament.
Demographics = Destiny
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  #54  
Old 28.05.2018, 13:40
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Re: Why is SVP popular?

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There certainly ARE minarets in Switzerland.

Tom
A handful, if even that. Some threat to the occident.
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  #55  
Old 28.05.2018, 13:44
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Re: Why is SVP popular?

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But, beg my pardon, shouldn't paying tax give you some (tiny) sort of a "say" on how it is spent?
Nope.

By that reasoning everybody should get voting rights as of day one of entering a country.
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Old 28.05.2018, 13:44
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Re: Why is SVP popular?

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SVP is the party of Donald Trump if he were were Swiss. Which is why so many SVP supporters love the Drumphster. Let that sink in for a moment. Groan me all you want but its true.
That would be the Schweizer Demokraten (SD).

I'm not sure that those People love Trump per se. They just like the idea of puting the country's interests before any influences from outside. He was just the first who promoted this on a such a big platform.
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Old 28.05.2018, 13:52
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Re: Why is SVP popular?

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Nope.

By that reasoning everybody should get voting rights as of day one of entering a country.
Not day one, and not choosing the president or things like that. But why not the local elections? I live in this gemeinde of 500 people since X years ago, paying tax, contributing,... Why shouldn't I have a say on my representatives after some years?
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Old 28.05.2018, 13:54
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Re: Why is SVP popular?

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But, beg my pardon, shouldn't paying tax give you some (tiny) sort of a "say" on how it is spent?
Alot of people come to Switzerland, work a couple of years, and then move on to the next country. Should these people be allowed to change the workings of the society here? In my opinion, no. For their tax money, they have made use of roads, schools and public services, are entitled to some form of pension (or payout equivelant), etc. The right to vote should not be easily bought or given.
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Old 28.05.2018, 14:08
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Re: Why is SVP popular?

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I'm no expert in this field, so I googled "Hitler Nazi propaganda" and paged through the images, and read some of the links. Some of those images and their messages looked disturbingly familiar.

I also found this blog entry https://mindinflux.wordpress.com/201...nd-propaganda/ which points out - see also the comment section - at least some parallel between the Nazi drive to exterminate the disabled and deformed, on the basis that they cost society too much, and the benefits cuts in the UK.

The then leader of the SVP, Christoph Blocher, made the use of the word "Scheininvalide" (fake invalid) popular. Officially, this was to name those who were defrauding the system. The word, though, went on to be used to discredit people who have, or claim to have, or whose doctors attest to their having, disabilities which cannot be immediately and obviously seen.

I think Edwin's list is a good one to indicate some of the SVP's basic tenet. In accordance with one of those ideas, namely that the SVP holds that people should exercise responsibility for their own support, there have been cuts in disability pensions and supplementary benefits, here, too. Some have had their pensions struck or reduced.

For many people too ill to earn their own living, the Swiss bureaucratic hurdles to claiming a pension and other types of support are insurmountable (for the same reasons as earning their living is out of their reach), and their health-care and home-care needs simply do not get met, despite concerted efforts by the person who is ill and of his/her doctors to set out the truth of the impairments and healt deficits.

By no means do I think this is necessarily better elsewhere. See for example these reports from the UK:
https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...orking-britain
and
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a8119286.html

I knew a really nice Swiss person with a professional qualification and high personal ethical code who, while very ill and embroiled in this struggle for help, with doctors, nurses and forms and doctors' reports, was contacted by a former work colleague, enthusiastic in the SVP doctrine, telling the ill person to stop faking and return to work because it was a duty to the tax-payers not to cost more than the next person. A few months later, the ill person committed suicide, having informed friends that there was no way forward without sufficient help, and that the slur from the SVP colleague was too much to bear.

Here, for those who read German, is another blog along the same lines, about Switzerland, and how people dispair at being treated as citizens less worth than the healthy folk.
https://www.infosperber.ch/Politik/B...achsten-sparen
Here, too, see also the comments.
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That would be the Schweizer Demokraten (SD).

I'm not sure that those People love Trump per se. They just like the idea of puting the country's interests before any influences from outside. He was just the first who promoted this on a such a big platform.

Trump ran a campaign that was a mirror to Adolf Hitlers campaign and this is something to be admired?

I really need to get TF out this country.

Dont worry about the door hitting me on the way out, I'm knocking that bi#%h off its hinges.
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Old 28.05.2018, 14:15
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Re: Why is SVP popular?

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So you are in favor of letting in more foreigners and allowing them to vote so that your preferred party can get elected? I think I'd prefer to let the Swiss decide themselves how to steer their country. Alot of other countries have already been hijacked by Liberals in exactly that way.
25% of the Swiss population are foreigners; it is unfair that the views of such a very large group are ignored and this will sooner or later lead to problems.

There is also the view "no taxation without representation" which led to the formation of the US; for better or for worse!

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Expats who come somewhere to work are diverse in their interest and thus diverse in political interest, refugees and students mainly vote (like most people) for their own interest bringing them to the left party's since they do not force them to work by maintaining an incredible generous welfare system or give them as cheap as possible housing/healthcare and whatever.
......
Here we are talking about Switzerland where we have 26 political parties; 15 of these parties are in the Swiss Federal Assembly or in cantonal parliaments/executive councils. I doubt allowing foreigners to vote would add to the political diversity

Most refugees and students do not pay taxes so knowing the practical approach of the Swiss to economic matters they would be pretty low down on the priority list for voting rights
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