Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Living in Switzerland > Swiss politics/news  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #21  
Old 11.06.2018, 11:14
amogles's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Zurich
Posts: 12,361
Groaned at 337 Times in 273 Posts
Thanked 26,263 Times in 11,000 Posts
amogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Swiss voters have overwhelmingly backed a new gambling law....

Quote:
View Post
The country with the strongest internet content filters in Europe is the UK, hardly left winged hippies...


What Heiko Maas was targeting was something different. In the last couple of years did we see some sort of hate speech wave on the German internet. Yes, we can discuss forever how far freedom of speech should or does go... but in the current laws is it illegal to insult a person and even more so to threaten with violence. It does not matter if you do it online or in real life.
Hate campaigns at politicians and other public figures - typically the ones who supported refugees - have in fact lead to some crazy people committing violent crimes. So I think giving the police the tools to do the same jobs online which they do offline is a no-brainer. The discussion should not be if the police should enforce a law. The discussion should be on that law.
We can walk around in circles discussing this. But the fact is that censorship exists, whether for good or bad reasons. And that you remark about the SVP has nothing to do with those who are really at the forefront of asking for and supporting it.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 11.06.2018, 11:31
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Swiss voters have overwhelmingly backed a new gambling law....

Quote:
No, it doesn't. The vote doesn't confer any powers or mechanism for enforcement.
From the explanatory document:
Quote:
Das Geldspielgesetz sieht deshalb vor, dass die Schweiz wie
17 weitere europšische Staaten den Zugang zu unbewilligten
Online‑Spielen sperrt
So yes, it explicitly does.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 11.06.2018, 11:43
Treverus's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Work in ZH, live in SZ
Posts: 12,760
Groaned at 366 Times in 305 Posts
Thanked 24,660 Times in 8,910 Posts
Treverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Swiss voters have overwhelmingly backed a new gambling law....

Quote:
View Post
We can walk around in circles discussing this. But the fact is that censorship exists, whether for good or bad reasons. And that you remark about the SVP has nothing to do with those who are really at the forefront of asking for and supporting it.
Yup. My remark was about the SVPs ability to turn any topic into something they can blame on criminal Muslim immigrants. Not sure how that will work with gambling as that isn't a Muslim thing... but I am sure they'll find a way.
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 11.06.2018, 11:48
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: SG
Posts: 10,633
Groaned at 657 Times in 477 Posts
Thanked 14,440 Times in 7,550 Posts
Urs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Swiss voters have overwhelmingly backed a new gambling law....

Quote:
View Post
The posters of the yes side have been pushing the argument that this law captures tax revenue that can be used for things like children's sports, zoos and other nice stuff. Whether that's how it really works is a matter of debate of course. But winning the vote creates a sort of obligation to actually spend money on those things so this doesn't turn into the equivalent of Boris' bus fiasco.
At least partially that's partially what actually happens.

The casino's gross earnings (defined as the total of all players bets minus players wins paid out) are heavily taxed. For class A casinos ("Grand Casinos") the tax rate is 50% on average; that tax (200mln annually) funds the AHV. For class B casinos the tax rate is 43% on gross earnings of 280mln, about 2/5 of the tax (47mln) or 17% of gross revenue funds the Lotteriefonds.

You may have heard of Lotto and Totto; their payout rate is 50%, the other half funds the Lotteriefonds, AFAIK it's its main money source. Each Kanton has its own sub-Lotteriefonds which is funded by respective Kanton's share of the federal Lotteriefonds. The kantonal Lotteriefonds is used to sponsor a full host of things, in general cultural events and institutions.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Urs Max for this useful post:
  #25  
Old 11.06.2018, 11:52
amogles's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Zurich
Posts: 12,361
Groaned at 337 Times in 273 Posts
Thanked 26,263 Times in 11,000 Posts
amogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Swiss voters have overwhelmingly backed a new gambling law....

Quote:
View Post
At least partially that's partially what actually happens.

The casino's gross earnings (defined as the total of all players bets minus players wins paid out) are heavily taxed. For class A casinos ("Grand Casinos") the tax rate is 50% on average; that money (200mln annually) funds the AHV. For class B casinos the tax rate is 43% on gross earnings of, about 2/5 (47mln) funds the Lotteriefonds.

You may have heard of Lotto and Totto; their payout rate is 50%, the other half funds the Lotteriefonds, it's its main money source. Each Kanton has its own sub-Lotteriefonds which is funded by Kanton's share of the federal Lotteriefonds. The kantonal Lotteriefonds is used to sponsor a full host of things, in general cultural events and institutions.
Yes, I was assuming everybody knew that. Not the exact figures but the principle.

The question is, does internet gambling meaningfully lessen that revenue, and does the new law fix that gap?
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 11.06.2018, 11:54
amogles's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Zurich
Posts: 12,361
Groaned at 337 Times in 273 Posts
Thanked 26,263 Times in 11,000 Posts
amogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Swiss voters have overwhelmingly backed a new gambling law....

Quote:
View Post
Yup. My remark was about the SVPs ability to turn any topic into something they can blame on criminal Muslim immigrants. Not sure how that will work with gambling as that isn't a Muslim thing... but I am sure they'll find a way.
But so far nobody besides you has made that connection yet.

You are comparing a real discussion with a totally hypothetical one.
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 11.06.2018, 11:54
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Swiss voters have overwhelmingly backed a new gambling law....

Quote:
View Post
Yes, I was assuming everybody knew that. Not the exact figures but the principle.

The question is, does internet gambling meaningfully lessen that revenue, and does the new law fix that gap?
I imagine internet gambling from foreign sites counts for sweet FA when it comes to revenue for Swiss AHV and whatever else the Swiss gambling is contributing to.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank for this useful post:
  #28  
Old 11.06.2018, 11:58
gbn's Avatar
gbn gbn is offline
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Zuri Oberland
Posts: 2,764
Groaned at 107 Times in 73 Posts
Thanked 2,428 Times in 1,140 Posts
gbn has a reputation beyond reputegbn has a reputation beyond reputegbn has a reputation beyond reputegbn has a reputation beyond reputegbn has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Swiss voters have overwhelmingly backed a new gambling law....

Quote:
View Post
...
And the Swiss are once again sure that only Swiss casinos can be good casinos... and its all for the protection of the people and in no way to keep the money in the country.
There are only 2 reasons to ban gambling *in this fashion*®
- puritanism (USA)
- tax/money leaving the country (Europe)
Or a mix of both

Any dressing up about "protecting addicts" is utter horseshit given other addictions are far more prevalent. Online gambling outfits don't want problem (or professional gamblers): they have data warehouses to predict spend and patterns per customers. It's bad PR quite simply.

In this case, it seems more like "put a Swiss flag on it = Swiss gambling is higher quality" or some such bollocks.

The censorship bit is interesting though. What next?
ISPs to filter Amazon because people aren't spending money in the country?

Disclaimer: I've worked for a Swedish online gambling outfit with operations/licences all over Europe
Reply With Quote
The following 7 users would like to thank gbn for this useful post:
  #29  
Old 11.06.2018, 12:09
amogles's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Zurich
Posts: 12,361
Groaned at 337 Times in 273 Posts
Thanked 26,263 Times in 11,000 Posts
amogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Swiss voters have overwhelmingly backed a new gambling law....

Quote:
I imagine internet gambling from foreign sites counts for sweet FA when it comes to revenue for Swiss AHV and whatever else the Swiss gambling is contributing to.
Yeah, sure.

But technically that's not the same as saying Swiss gambling outfits lose revenue to foreign gambling outfits. Might be a totally different demographic and all that. Think language barriers and /or different games or even general distrust of foreign stuff, especially by older people. Or just that the sort of person who buys a lotto ticket at the kiosk while waiting for the train is not at all the type who would gamble online. So no real threat. Might be the market overall is growing so there are pickings for everybody. Lots of scenarios are possible and we haven't really seen any data.
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 11.06.2018, 12:24
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: SG
Posts: 10,633
Groaned at 657 Times in 477 Posts
Thanked 14,440 Times in 7,550 Posts
Urs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Swiss voters have overwhelmingly backed a new gambling law....

Quote:
View Post
Yes, I was assuming everybody knew that. Not the exact figures but the principle.

The question is, does internet gambling meaningfully lessen that revenue, and does the new law fix that gap?
Of course it does though the extent is anybody's guess, and no.
Reply With Quote
  #31  
Old 11.06.2018, 12:25
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Swiss voters have overwhelmingly backed a new gambling law....

Quote:
View Post
Yeah, sure.

But technically that's not the same as saying Swiss gambling outfits lose revenue to foreign gambling outfits. Might be a totally different demographic and all that. Think language barriers and /or different games or even general distrust of foreign stuff, especially by older people. Or just that the sort of person who buys a lotto ticket at the kiosk while waiting for the train is not at all the type who would gamble online. So no real threat. Might be the market overall is growing so there are pickings for everybody. Lots of scenarios are possible and we haven't really seen any data.
Interesting that the overall vote in favour was so huge, though. If foreign online gambling was so big, you'd have thought more people would want less regulation rather than a complete cut of one sector.
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 11.06.2018, 12:28
amogles's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Zurich
Posts: 12,361
Groaned at 337 Times in 273 Posts
Thanked 26,263 Times in 11,000 Posts
amogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Swiss voters have overwhelmingly backed a new gambling law....

Quote:
Interesting that the overall vote in favour was so huge, though. If foreign online gambling was so big, you'd have thought more people would want less regulation rather than a complete cut of one sector.
In my view, both sides were fielding a lot of BS arguments. I did t see much in the way of hard facts being produced by either side, or serious attempts at a debate.

I think many people didn't have a clue what was really at stake, or why it matters. Hence the low turnout.

I think the general Swiss reflex is, in case of doubt, follow the government's recommendation.
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 11.06.2018, 12:33
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Swiss voters have overwhelmingly backed a new gambling law....

Quote:
View Post
In my view, both sides were fielding a lot of BS arguments. I did t see much in the way of hard facts being produced by either side, or serious attempts at a debate.

I think many people didn't have a clue what was really at stake, or why it matters. Hence the low turnout.

I think the general Swiss reflex is, in case of doubt, follow the government's recommendation.
So it kind of figures, in that case, that there's not a huge rabid appetite for online foreign-based gambling then otherwise there would have been a more hotly charged debate. Seems to have just been collectively filed under "Meh, whatevs...".
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 11.06.2018, 14:28
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Zurich
Posts: 1,091
Groaned at 3 Times in 3 Posts
Thanked 1,400 Times in 695 Posts
irish_temptation has a reputation beyond reputeirish_temptation has a reputation beyond reputeirish_temptation has a reputation beyond reputeirish_temptation has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Swiss voters have overwhelmingly backed a new gambling law....

As usual it's a combination of all the above. Many of the people who use it did probably not bother voting...Many of the people who voted don't care and just followed what the government suggested (yes, that happens very often) or would like to ban all online gambling (so they just voted for the ban).


In my opinion the "against" campaign was poorly done. Only in the last couple of weeks did they say they wanted a new law, a better one, if this one Fails.


It's an interesting question if other bans will follow. We shall find out!
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 11.06.2018, 21:22
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Coppet
Posts: 158
Groaned at 2 Times in 2 Posts
Thanked 132 Times in 54 Posts
acf69 is considered knowledgeableacf69 is considered knowledgeableacf69 is considered knowledgeable
Re: Swiss voters have overwhelmingly backed a new gambling law....

It is hard to block VPN, one can just get a dedicated IP and it will be almost impossible to trace being a VPN. How do I know?
However, it is more tricky to send funds to offshore online casino's with a Swiss issued bank account, credit card and billing address. Can also be dealt with but might not be worth the hassle.
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 11.06.2018, 22:31
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Nyon
Posts: 8,061
Groaned at 510 Times in 376 Posts
Thanked 11,315 Times in 5,244 Posts
bowlie has a reputation beyond reputebowlie has a reputation beyond reputebowlie has a reputation beyond reputebowlie has a reputation beyond reputebowlie has a reputation beyond reputebowlie has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Swiss voters have overwhelmingly backed a new gambling law....

There is absolutely no need to block internet access to foreign casinos (etc) or attempt to stymie VPN access.

All they have to do is to block Swiss Credit/Debit/Banking transactions with said foreign companies. Said gambling business will cut off Swiss residents faster than you can say croupier.

Of course gambling addicts can use Revolut or something like that, but most Swiss punters will use Swiss sites and Swiss taxes will be collected accordingly.
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 11.06.2018, 22:54
JagWaugh's Avatar
RIP
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Eglisau
Posts: 7,248
Groaned at 46 Times in 45 Posts
Thanked 14,131 Times in 5,506 Posts
JagWaugh has a reputation beyond reputeJagWaugh has a reputation beyond reputeJagWaugh has a reputation beyond reputeJagWaugh has a reputation beyond reputeJagWaugh has a reputation beyond reputeJagWaugh has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Swiss voters have overwhelmingly backed a new gambling law....

Quote:
View Post
Really surprised at this, such an "un-Swiss" thing to vote for. Best get closing my online accounts...
Nothing but EF and Habbo Hotel for you from now on.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank JagWaugh for this useful post:
  #38  
Old 11.06.2018, 23:15
amogles's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Zurich
Posts: 12,361
Groaned at 337 Times in 273 Posts
Thanked 26,263 Times in 11,000 Posts
amogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Swiss voters have overwhelmingly backed a new gambling law....

Quote:
View Post
There is absolutely no need to block internet access to foreign casinos (etc) or attempt to stymie VPN access.

All they have to do is to block Swiss Credit/Debit/Banking transactions with said foreign companies. Said gambling business will cut off Swiss residents faster than you can say croupier.

Of course gambling addicts can use Revolut or something like that, but most Swiss punters will use Swiss sites and Swiss taxes will be collected accordingly.
Foreign bank accounts or even credit cards are not that difficult to get.
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 12.06.2018, 07:40
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Nyon
Posts: 8,061
Groaned at 510 Times in 376 Posts
Thanked 11,315 Times in 5,244 Posts
bowlie has a reputation beyond reputebowlie has a reputation beyond reputebowlie has a reputation beyond reputebowlie has a reputation beyond reputebowlie has a reputation beyond reputebowlie has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Swiss voters have overwhelmingly backed a new gambling law....

Quote:
View Post
Foreign bank accounts or even credit cards are not that difficult to get.
Of course. But most people, still having access to Swiss sites, will have little incentive to set one up for just this purpose. Also using such sites could have tax or other implications for a big win. Would this involve profiting from an illegal activity? Perhaps.

Swiss sites can be obliged to comply with Swiss law, foreign companies not so much.

I donít gamble for a simple reason. On Average the house always wins. Always. Itís a law of the universe, like gravity or entropy.
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 12.06.2018, 08:27
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Swiss voters have overwhelmingly backed a new gambling law....

Quote:
View Post
Really? I find it the most Swiss thing to do.


The Swiss had a general ban on gambling since forever. That was a time before the internet, so to gamble one had to visit a real life casino. The ones just across the border from Konstanz to Bregenz made many millions on Swiss customers a year. So much so that at some point the cantons decided theyd rather keep the money in the country... and therefore allow gambling while still believing its a bad thing.

Then we had a decade or so of public disputes about poker tournaments. The government cracked down on any sort of fun tournament they could find. There were literally raids by SWAT teams on some village club houses... so a lot of people apparently decided to rather play poker online.

And the Swiss are once again sure that only Swiss casinos can be good casinos... and its all for the protection of the people and in no way to keep the money in the country.
I meant it was "un-Swiss" in that Switzerland has a very relaxed view when it comes to other vices (smoking, drinking, prostitution, illegal downloading etc.). Seems an odd thing to focus on gambling addiction when illnesses from smoking and drinking are likely just as prevalent. I always viewed Switzerland as very libertarian when it comes down to such matters which is why I'm surprised that this vote gained so much support.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
gambling, gambling sites, goverment




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
New swiss naturalization law and the process Einstein Permits/visas/government 3 29.11.2015 20:58
Scared as hell about meeting new Swiss Mom-in-law ZuriRollt Daily life 66 22.11.2015 10:36
LAW?? When do i have to have a room for my baby son? dgsilva87 Housing in general 4 10.11.2014 18:30
New law requiring all apartment buildings to have secure locks on main entrance? Vlh22 Housing in general 9 08.06.2013 19:17
New law for swiss univ grads manadi Employment 2 22.02.2011 18:31


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 13:15.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2023, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0