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Old 04.07.2018, 14:03
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Swiss refugee spotting plane grounded in Malta...

A Swiss group of private pilots have for years operated a light aircraft based in Malta. They cruised the med and spotted the refugee rafts for various rescue missions. The aircraft has been grounded by Malta.
http://www.20min.ch/panorama/news/st...eben--26694619


I don't think that NGOs picking up people in the Med is the answer to a migration problem we currently have. This is a job for governments, not volunteers. But I find it bizarre how civil rights get easily thrown out of the window: Just because a government does not like what you are doing does not mean they can stop you. They need to pass laws in their parliaments and enforce them according to the rule of law. I do not see a law that can ban me from flying over the med in any way I want. In this case are the pilots Swiss, the plane is Swiss registered and is doing nothing remotely illegal.


The EU not wanting eye witnesses for people dying a terrible death is no excuse for limiting freedom without a democratic decision to do so.
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Old 04.07.2018, 14:11
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Re: Swiss refugee spotting plane grounded in Malta...

you could also say that they are unintentionally supporting human trafficking. from that perspective, it definitely makes sense.
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Old 04.07.2018, 14:18
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Re: Swiss refugee spotting plane grounded in Malta...

How many people have drowned just because they thought that somebody would pick them up?

There is a direct relation between the amount of deaths and the amount of people being picked up by these organisations.
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Old 04.07.2018, 14:24
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Re: Swiss refugee spotting plane grounded in Malta...

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you could also say that they are unintentionally supporting human trafficking. from that perspective, it definitely makes sense.
Really? If they are human traffickers do they deserve to get arrested and trialed. But that's not happening... and either way do you need a legal base and not just tell people what to do. Unless you declare a state of emergency. Which is not happening either.
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Old 04.07.2018, 14:28
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Re: Swiss refugee spotting plane grounded in Malta...

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How many people have drowned just because they thought that somebody would pick them up?

There is a direct relation between the amount of deaths and the amount of people being picked up by these organisations.


Any source for that claim? Especially the causal correlation?


It seems that the situation for the migrants is so terrible that they don't fear death and still try... no matter if there are ships in the area or not.


I have no problem to stop the NGOs and would prefer to replace them with a clear and consistent EU strategy and ground force... but with due process including a public debate and law making. The current "We wont let you anchor" debate for each and every vessel is ridiculous.
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Old 04.07.2018, 14:29
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Re: Swiss refugee spotting plane grounded in Malta...

apparently they didn't have the right permit

I didn't know such a permit is needed, but with Malta one can't tell.

The migrants should be picked up by the North african countries from which they departed.
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Old 04.07.2018, 14:38
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Re: Swiss refugee spotting plane grounded in Malta...

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apparently they didn't have the right permit

I didn't know such a permit is needed, but with Malta one can't tell.

The migrants should be picked up by the North african countries from which they departed.
Well, there is no such thing as a search and rescue license. Not in Malta, not in Switzerland or anywhere. They simply stop a private pilot using his private plane. They will cause a long legal fight they can drag through their own court system and don't care if they lose it in a year or two... probably five if it is in the end moved to Strassbourg. That's the point. Its the sort of thing that is common for corrupt 3rd world countries, but not acceptable for an EU member.
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Old 04.07.2018, 14:42
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Re: Swiss refugee spotting plane grounded in Malta...

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Any source for that claim? Especially the causal correlation?
EDIT : Loz posted it only a few days ago on a thread you were active on but I guessed you missed it :
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Old 04.07.2018, 14:55
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Re: Swiss refugee spotting plane grounded in Malta...

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That's pretty obviously not a causal correlation as the refugees dropped sharply before the boats were "turned back" again... except that they weren't. The people were locked up indefinitely in concentration camps in Papua. Do we also count the people who got killed or injured in those camps?


Anyways... it happens to correlate really well with the events in Europe... When the Balkan route opened was this a much easier choice for Afghans, so why go by boat for weeks to Australia?


Just another case of "bad science" where real numbers are taken from a very credible source and then mixed with a cause for biased propaganda.
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Old 04.07.2018, 15:01
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Re: Swiss refugee spotting plane grounded in Malta...

I noticed also that reports have come out about the NGO ships not operating according to law.

This after many reports of the NGO boats interfering in the rescue of migrants at sea by the Libyan coast guard -surely the Libyan coast guard is the correct body for rescuing ships off the Libyan coast ???
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Old 04.07.2018, 15:01
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Re: Swiss refugee spotting plane grounded in Malta...

Remember that one scene in "Frozen?" The one where little Anna is jumping from one ice slide to the next one and they are getting bigger and bigger and Else tries to stop Anna because it´s getting out of control but can´t because Anna isn´t listening?
That is where the "refugee" (notice the quotes) situation is going, the only way to stop them is to create conditions in the African countries where it is more profitable to stay than it is to risk the journey, make it easier for Africa to sell in the EU markets for instance, get rid of the trade barriers, then in the long run you will see trafikking in the med stop. Until then confiscate the NGO´s and turn the boats back.
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Old 04.07.2018, 15:06
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Re: Swiss refugee spotting plane grounded in Malta...

Nice Frozen picture... except that its simply not true that there are more and more coming. The number is down by half since last year. 80% less than two years ago and getting less.


https://www.tagesschau.de/ausland/fl...ge-un-105.html


Quite the opposite from spiraling out of control.
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Old 04.07.2018, 15:15
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Re: Swiss refugee spotting plane grounded in Malta...

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That's pretty obviously not a causal correlation as the refugees dropped sharply before the boats were "turned back" again... except that they weren't. The people were locked up indefinitely in concentration camps in Papua. Do we also count the people who got killed or injured in those camps?


Anyways... it happens to correlate really well with the events in Europe... When the Balkan route opened was this a much easier choice for Afghans, so why go by boat for weeks to Australia?


Just another case of "bad science" where real numbers are taken from a very credible source and then mixed with a cause for biased propaganda.
Many people who "flee" Lybia are not Libyans but Africans who take the Lybia route for economical improvement.

The closer one picks up people to the Libyan shore, the less seaworthy vessels are used, and less water and food is provided.

A lot of vessels are made to sink the moment a rescue ship is sighted.

etc.. etc..
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Old 04.07.2018, 15:18
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Re: Swiss refugee spotting plane grounded in Malta...

One can't help wonder if this is not all linked..

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...-a8422801.html


I think processing centers in Africa maybe a better option, allowing to evaluate refugees statuses and establish most suitable country to receive them, support with needed skills for relocation such as languages and rule of law... the swiss example of doing all this in container housing on the fringe of society does not seem the best way
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Old 04.07.2018, 15:26
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Re: Swiss refugee spotting plane grounded in Malta...

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I noticed also that reports have come out about the NGO ships not operating according to law.

This after many reports of the NGO boats interfering in the rescue of migrants at sea by the Libyan coast guard -surely the Libyan coast guard is the correct body for rescuing ships off the Libyan coast ???
Oh yeah Libya that fantastic hotbed of human rights, thats not in the midst of some sort of civil war. Sure. Maybe Algeria can tidy up a bit with a little desert tour. I would be pretty certain that if the Libyans caught them it would'nt be to rescue them.

They have been shut down by the Maltese Government for political reasons to absolve responsibilty regardless of humanitarian law. Article from 2005.

Not sure why I would bother trying to argue about the rights or wrongs of that, with a sharp intellect like yourself Parnell.
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Old 04.07.2018, 15:32
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Re: Swiss refugee spotting plane grounded in Malta...

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Well, there is no such thing as a search and rescue license. Not in Malta, not in Switzerland or anywhere. They simply stop a private pilot using his private plane. They will cause a long legal fight they can drag through their own court system and don't care if they lose it in a year or two... probably five if it is in the end moved to Strassbourg. That's the point. Its the sort of thing that is common for corrupt 3rd world countries, but not acceptable for an EU member.
I don't think you really cut it looking at it as if it's just a private pilot who flies over the sea for fun and just incidentally and without intent happens to be the bridge between people smugglers and the NGOs they work hand in hand with.

Would you express the same leniency for pilots whsoe scouting protects drugs and other types of smugglers? There is such a thing in law as being an accesory to a crime. The guy who stands on the street and catwhsitles when the police approach can go to prison for bank robbery just as much as the guy who actually pointed the gun and grabs the cash.

I think what this incident has done is brought to light for everybody to see that a Swiss church organisation is supporting an illegal activity and helping people smugglöing orgnaisations. People will remember that when their church taxes come up for renewal.
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Old 04.07.2018, 15:35
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Re: Swiss refugee spotting plane grounded in Malta...

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Well, there is no such thing as a search and rescue license. Not in Malta, not in Switzerland or anywhere. They simply stop a private pilot using his private plane. They will cause a long legal fight they can drag through their own court system and don't care if they lose it in a year or two... probably five if it is in the end moved to Strassbourg. That's the point. Its the sort of thing that is common for corrupt 3rd world countries, but not acceptable for an EU member.
Is Malta isn't a 3rd world country, but definitely could clean up it's act.
In the meantime, as this is a matter of life & death - can't the EU courts force Malta to repeal the ban ?
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Old 04.07.2018, 15:37
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Re: Swiss refugee spotting plane grounded in Malta...

Fine to have a spotter plane if the migrants are to be rescued and brought back to Libya or Tunisia, no one wants to see unnecessary deaths. The problem is the NGO taxi service to Europe which encourages more to make the dangerous trip.
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Old 04.07.2018, 15:40
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Re: Swiss refugee spotting plane grounded in Malta...

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Is Malta isn't a 3rd world country, but definitely could clean up it's act.
In the meantime, as this is a matter of life & death - can't the EU courts force Malta to repeal the ban ?
If someone takes the case to the EU court then in principle

Malta has a history of ignoring the EU (not going to EU panels on Panama papers for example), but France and Germany also ignore EU rules with monotonous regularity.
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Old 04.07.2018, 15:44
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Re: Swiss refugee spotting plane grounded in Malta...

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the only way to stop them is to create conditions in the African countries where it is more profitable to stay
I wasn't going to meddle in this business. But when I saw this one I was wondering if it really has been than long that people forgot what happened to every single country a "western" power tried to "create conditions" in a "less developed world".

This just boils down to one thing: how much is a human life worth. Also if you can live with the moral implications of "If a refugee drowns in a sea and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?" from your comfortable chair.
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