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  #21  
Old 24.09.2018, 12:27
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Re: 37%, a measly 37%.

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That is why I would like to see an option to 'abstain' on the vote. Or in case of an election having the choice 'none of the above'.
In case of votes (Abstimmung) you can abstain, just leave blank. These votes are counted (as blanks of course), declared AFAIK and taken into account also for the turnout.
Only empty ballots in elections do not count and are regarded as "invalid". An if I'm not mistaken in most cases you can write ANY name in ballots, they are valid and accounted as "others" (Andere) in the results.


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Last edited by CHnuschti; 24.09.2018 at 12:50.
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  #22  
Old 24.09.2018, 13:03
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Re: 37%, a measly 37%.

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Only empty ballots in elections do not count and are regarded as "invalid". An if I'm not mistaken in most cases you can write ANY name in ballots, they are valid and accounted as "others" (Andere) in the results.
I had the honour to count votes before. Most boring job ever... but its important to a democracy. Do the people who actually care a favour and only throw a blank one in if you are so unhappy with the choices. Everything else needs to be evaluated. Not sure about the exact rules in CH, but in Germany does every vote count where the clear intention of the voter is apparent... say if a voter crosses out all the parties but one is the vote most likely going to count. Its just a pain for the people counting.
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  #23  
Old 24.09.2018, 13:44
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Re: 37%, a measly 37%.

I am happy to be able to decide, whether or not I want to vote. There are enough topics, which are pretty complex or way out of the scope of my interests and I just don't know enough / cannot take the time to learn enough to build myself an educated and competent opinion.

In these cases, I think, it is better to STFU and let the experts have a go at it than to put in a vote "by the seat of the pants", just because it's my "right".

If only the politicians would do the same
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  #24  
Old 24.09.2018, 13:58
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Re: 37%, a measly 37%.

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In these cases, I think, it is better to STFU and let the experts have a go at it than to put in a vote "by the seat of the pants", just because it's my "right".

If only the politicians would do the same
I completely disagree: Switzerland is one of the countries where the experts have less power than in the rest of the Western world and it has been a great thing. Because experts have typically ties to the industries connected to their topics... so in the best case are they biased and in the worst case is the law written by a lobby group instead of the elected representatives.


There have been some votes in CH with stupid outcomes like the minaret bad, but there have been way more examples in the EU as well as the US where the lobbyists managed to get their points through against the popular opinion.
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  #25  
Old 24.09.2018, 14:37
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Re: 37%, a measly 37%.

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There have been some votes in CH with stupid outcomes like the minaret ban.
How was that a stupid outcome?

I was quite pleased with it!

Tom
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  #26  
Old 24.09.2018, 15:01
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Re: 37%, a measly 37%.

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That is why I would like to see an option to 'abstain' on the vote. Or in case of an election having the choice 'none of the above'. Those little bits of information are invaluable in knowing the wishes of the people.

Everyone loves the direct democracy, but if they don't participate ...

Oh, and the naturalisation process makes it very clear the importance of citizens participation in the political process. Were they lying when they said that?
Direct democracy is great and I'm a firm supporter, however let's take this last vote as an example. I personally care about animal welfare and I do my best to try and source my meat, dairy and eggs from farms which have good husbandry and happy animals. I obviously don't care enough though or else I'd be vegan. I also care about those less well off being able to afford to eat meat. So all in all I'm quite firmly sat on the fence on the matter, and certainly not bothered enough about it to drag my ass out of bed to go and vote on it.
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  #27  
Old 24.09.2018, 15:03
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Re: 37%, a measly 37%.

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Direct democracy is great and I'm a firm supporter, however let's take this last vote as an example. I personally care about animal welfare and I do my best to try and source my meat, dairy and eggs from farms which have good husbandry and happy animals. I obviously don't care enough though or else I'd be vegan. I also care about those less well off being able to afford to eat meat. So all in all I'm quite firmly sat on the fence on the matter, and certainly not bothered enough about it to drag my ass out of bed to go and vote on it.
You don't have to drag your ass out of bed. They send you the voting papers in the post. Or at least they do in our neck of the woods.
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  #28  
Old 24.09.2018, 15:06
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Re: 37%, a measly 37%.

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Because experts have typically ties to the industries connected to their topics... so in the best case are they biased and in the worst case is the law written by a lobby group instead of the elected representatives.
Yes, lobbyists are a pest. And so are many of those, who write the comments on articles from "Blick" and "20 Minuten". Wonder, how democracy survived all these
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  #29  
Old 24.09.2018, 15:12
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Re: 37%, a measly 37%.

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Direct democracy is great and I'm a firm supporter, however let's take this last vote as an example. I personally care about animal welfare and I do my best to try and source my meat, dairy and eggs from farms which have good husbandry and happy animals. I obviously don't care enough though or else I'd be vegan. I also care about those less well off being able to afford to eat meat. So all in all I'm quite firmly sat on the fence on the matter, and certainly not bothered enough about it to drag my ass out of bed to go and vote on it.
This, exactly.

And furthermore, the posters and parts of the public debate reduce what is a complex and multi-layered topic to something black and white. Vote for the initiative, and you push poor people into starvation, vote against it and you support the torture of animals. So both ways, you're an inhumane barsteward.

At the end of the day, a vote is always going to be yes versus no. But my feeling is that the level of public debate has slipped over these last few years.

Maybe also to do with many initiatives of late being all versus nothing rather than some small changes in the right direction.
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  #30  
Old 24.09.2018, 15:33
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Re: 37%, a measly 37%.

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You don't have to drag your ass out of bed. They send you the voting papers in the post. Or at least they do in our neck of the woods.
Or do both.

My wife signed hers, and I handed them in Sunday morning (to save on postage).

Tom
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  #31  
Old 24.09.2018, 22:06
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Re: 37%, a measly 37%.

The Röschtigrabe is certainly alive and well ...
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  #32  
Old 24.09.2018, 22:11
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Re: 37%, a measly 37%.

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The Röschtigrabe is certainly alive and well ...
As is the south/west divide.

Tom
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  #33  
Old 24.09.2018, 22:16
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Re: 37%, a measly 37%.

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Or do both.

My wife signed hers, and I handed them in Sunday morning (to save on postage).

Tom
It's free in Zürich, and as much I'm aware while they say you should pay postage in some other Kanton's, they won't charge you (and still count your vote) if you don't pay for postage
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  #34  
Old 24.09.2018, 22:19
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Re: 37%, a measly 37%.

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It's free in Zürich, and as much I'm aware while they say you should pay postage in some other Kanton's, they won't charge you (and still count your vote) if you don't pay for postage
I'll have to ask, but as the commune box is 10m from the PO box, the point is moot.

Tom
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Old 25.09.2018, 10:57
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Re: 37%, a measly 37%.

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How was that a stupid outcome?

I was quite pleased with it!

Tom
Oh, come on, Tom. Do you really think that such a superficial topic deserves a place in the Constitution, even if it passed with 2/3 of the votes? It doesn't ban mosques, it bans an architectural feature of the mosque, the "bell tower". And as far as I can recall, it doesn't even ban mosque speakers. Just the tower. It's just silly.

Plus it introduces a contradiction in the constitution in regards to freedom of religion, and makes Switzerland look bad in front of the world (I remember reading lots of articles condemning the resolution). So all we really got was no new minarets built (but the existing ones remained). I think it'd be better to focus on things that are more important.
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  #36  
Old 25.09.2018, 11:48
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Re: 37%, a measly 37%.

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Oh, come on, Tom. Do you really think that such a superficial topic deserves a place in the Constitution, even if it passed with 2/3 of the votes? It doesn't ban mosques, it bans an architectural feature of the mosque, the "bell tower". And as far as I can recall, it doesn't even ban mosque speakers. Just the tower. It's just silly.
If you spool the film a bit further back you will recall that it all started when a mosque didn't get a permit to build a minaret because a local planning law said you cannot build higher than this. They had a court rule that religious freedom can overrule urban planning regulations. That was the real silliness. And then came the vote and they got the pushback they had been asking for. So I say good riddance to them. Just a pity for all the more reasobale muslims who would never have done something so silly.
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  #37  
Old 25.09.2018, 12:48
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Re: 37%, a measly 37%.

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It's free in Zürich, and as much I'm aware while they say you should pay postage in some other Kanton's, they won't charge you (and still count your vote) if you don't pay for postage
At this point it's a Cantonal decision to prepay the postage, some leave the decision to their communes.

However the Nationalrat recently voted for a motion to have the postage prepaid by the federal government. A few years ago the Ständerat voted against the same or similar proposition so it's far from clear what will happen this time around.
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