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  #181  
Old 21.11.2018, 12:37
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Re: SVP self-determination initiative

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You miss the point; that is the latest poll.
Old polls are as valuable as yesterday's newspaper.
Depends how why you value the poll. If the value of a poll is tied to it's age, then you are right. On the other hand, if the value is tied to it's accuracy of the actual vote outcome, then it's something else.

Again, look at the Gfs surveys for the MEI https://www.tagesanzeiger.ch/schweiz...story/25707856

The third survey seems to have been less accurate in relation to the actual vote result than the survey done in February, 3 months prior.
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  #182  
Old 21.11.2018, 12:40
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Re: SVP self-determination initiative

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Not actually true. There can be a direct referendum on said international deals any time if the appropriate number of signatures are gathered. The initiative, in reality, is only about trying to open an underhand back door to enable the SVP to use their usual disreputable single issues to undermine Switzerland's agreements with the EU.

Switzerland is only in these international agreements in the first place because the people were in favour, either actively (through a vote) or passively (because not enough people could be found to raise an objection). Only right that these decisions are open to a direct challenge only, not some SVP neocons trying to find an emotive issue to chip away at them.

I am very confident that a direct initiative to leave the European Convention on Human Rights would fail which is why the SVP will try to breach it through their attacks on refugees for example.
If the Swiss people can nevertheless decide on international regulations with a referendum, then I do not get what all concerns on SBI is about especially wrt HR!

But, as you write, most probably the concern is more about the people having a say on matters they should not, e.g. the agreements with the EU.
Which is exactly my point: “shielding” some matters from the voting process, which boils down to crippling the Swiss democratic process.

The point is not agreeing or disagreeing with the political stances of the proponents of the initiative, but about the rules that regulate the democratic process.
I may not agree with SVP policies, but it is still up to the Swiss people to decide about their country.

I am not sure what will happen with this vote. It is up to the locals (and rightly so).

I know one thing: attempts to enforce supranational regulations which may (potentially) irritate the local communities risk to radicalize people even more. Many EU countries are witnessing this (Brexit being a notable example).

Anyhow, whatever people will choose, good luck Switzerland!
(And happy lunch to everybody :-)
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  #183  
Old 21.11.2018, 12:49
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Re: SVP self-determination initiative

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A better term would have been 'result' - it was a result of the non-implementation of the MEI.
And actually, looking at the definition of the word 'byproduct' ...

etc. etc. .....

The "byproduct" came from you
but don't let us stop you from discussing it with yourself.

........

I don't know what's so confusing about saying that disparaging remarks such as the ones you made towards the SVP aren't just as easy used against the SP, Greens and Left in general.

Such as 'As usual a basically good thought is taken too far, aiming at the wrong goals.' - Can be said about the Left as well ...

etc. etc. .....

Exactly. I wrote as usual. The Bundesrat likes to do that too. Very often we gotta say no to a basically good thing due to the sneaked in details.


And the other one, 'we're going through the extremist SVP ideas' - Can be changed to 'we're going through the extremist SP/Greens ideas' very easily. Only confusing if one has blinders on.

etc. etc.

ROFL. No party in Switzerland is so limited to one subject and so aggressive about it. And so whiney when they lose.
And so lonely with their demands.
This country doesn't think in left and right only, too many active parties which stick together in completly different patterns depending on the subject at hand instead of some basic cardinal direction they took way back when. You're new here or something?


I never asked you to 'tell me what to vote'. You dissed the one bit of material I linked to (mind you, without any argument other than 'that's a monologue' - which is neither true nor an argument), so the logical conclusion is that you have a wealth of information which you think is superior to it. I challenged you to supply this superior information and you come back with that? Ok. Sure.
It was not true nor an argument? Watch it again if you're into such stuff.

What a load of BS. All the information I have is available to everybody. Even from abroad. If you decide not to bother with it, that's up to you entirely. TIS.
I have the impression you prefer to talk to yourself. Maybe on a good day nag at other posters interfering.

I leave you to it then. I voted last week. For me the subject is closed. As we do here I wait for the result, accept it and take things from there.
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  #184  
Old 21.11.2018, 12:51
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Re: SVP self-determination initiative

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It helps to have read what you argue on.

Besides, if the SBI is accepted all "völkerrechtlichen Verträge", international treaties with what's called "Verfassungsrang", that weren't subject to a referendum are immediately and unconditionally void.

Read the proposed §190, the federal court is to ignore an international treaty unless it was subject to a (mandatory or optional) referendum. The Change to §197 rules that this applies to all treaties, including existing ones. AFAIK the EHRC treaty wasn't subject to one, there are probably many more.
'Bundesgesetze und völkerrechtliche Verträge, deren Genehmigungsbeschluss dem Referendum unterstanden hat, sind für das Bundesgericht und die anderen rechtsanwendenden Behörden massgebend.' - I already made a mistake before regarding another bit of wording in the text (German legalese) so I will take this up with someone I know who studies International Law and see what they make of it.

But just at a glance it's a positive statement - saying that the FSC and law enforcement are bound to Federal laws and International Treaties. The question is what specifically is meant with 'deren Genehmigungsbeschluss dem Referendum unterstanden hat'. It could mean that any International Treaty which was made without the possibility of referendum are not binding, and not that a referendum had to actually have taken place on any International Treaty for it to be binding. But I will seek clarification on this because it's not as clear to me as I would like either way.
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  #185  
Old 21.11.2018, 12:53
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Re: SVP self-determination initiative

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If the Swiss people can nevertheless decide on international regulations with a referendum, then I do not get what all concerns on SBI is about especially wrt HR!

But, as you write, most probably the concern is more about the people having a say on matters they should not, e.g. the agreements with the EU.
Which is exactly my point: “shielding” some matters from the voting process, which boils down to crippling the Swiss democratic process.

The point is not agreeing or disagreeing with the political stances of the proponents of the initiative, but about the rules that regulate the democratic process.
I may not agree with SVP policies, but it is still up to the Swiss people to decide about their country.

I am not sure what will happen with this vote. It is up to the locals (and rightly so).

I know one thing: attempts to enforce supranational regulations which may (potentially) irritate the local communities risk to radicalize people even more. Many EU countries are witnessing this (Brexit being a notable example).

Anyhow, whatever people will choose, good luck Switzerland!
(And happy lunch to everybody :-)
Cannot agree more with that! Eh Guete
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  #186  
Old 21.11.2018, 13:00
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Re: SVP self-determination initiative

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I have the impression you prefer to talk to yourself. Maybe on a good day nag at other posters interfering.
Yeah, sure. That must be it. What can I say. You got me covered.
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  #187  
Old 21.11.2018, 13:16
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Re: SVP self-determination initiative

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Depends how why you value the poll. If the value of a poll is tied to it's age, then you are right. On the other hand, if the value is tied to it's accuracy of the actual vote outcome, then it's something else.

Again, look at the Gfs surveys for the MEI https://www.tagesanzeiger.ch/schweiz...story/25707856

The third survey seems to have been less accurate in relation to the actual vote result than the survey done in February, 3 months prior.
You didn't actually read the article then? That was done in 2016, more than 2 years AFTER the vote to see what people still thought of it. The other poll referred to was in February 2016, also 2 years AFTER the vote. The purpose was to see how the EU migrant crisis might have affected opinions.

Made a bit of a fool of yourself there.
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  #188  
Old 21.11.2018, 13:31
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Re: SVP self-determination initiative

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If the Swiss people can nevertheless decide on international regulations with a referendum, then I do not get what all concerns on SBI is about especially wrt HR!

But, as you write, most probably the concern is more about the people having a say on matters they should not, e.g. the agreements with the EU.
Which is exactly my point: “shielding” some matters from the voting process, which boils down to crippling the Swiss democratic process.

The point is not agreeing or disagreeing with the political stances of the proponents of the initiative, but about the rules that regulate the democratic process.
I may not agree with SVP policies, but it is still up to the Swiss people to decide about their country.

I am not sure what will happen with this vote. It is up to the locals (and rightly so).

I know one thing: attempts to enforce supranational regulations which may (potentially) irritate the local communities risk to radicalize people even more. Many EU countries are witnessing this (Brexit being a notable example).

Anyhow, whatever people will choose, good luck Switzerland!
(And happy lunch to everybody :-)
Can I recommend you do some research on a topic before posting about it?

Very far from “shielding” some matters from the voting process there have been 12 EU related votes and already a vote in 2012 that rejected with a huge margin requiring all international treaties to be approved in a referendum.
  • 3 December 1972: free trade agreement with the European Communities is approved by 72.5% of voters
  • 6 December 1992: joining the European Economic Area is rejected by 50.3% of voters. This vote strongly highlighted the cultural divide between the German- and the French-speaking cantons, the Röstigraben. The only German-speaking cantons voting for the EEA were Basel-Stadt and Basel-Landschaft, which border on France and Germany.
  • 8 June 1997: the federal popular initiative "negotiations concerning EU membership: let the people decide!" on requiring the approval of a referendum and the Cantons to launch accession negotiations with the EU (« Négociations d'adhésion à l'UE : que le peuple décide ! ») is rejected by 74.1% of voters.
  • 21 May 2000: the Bilateral agreements with the EU are accepted by 67.2% of voters.
  • 4 March 2001: the federal popular initiative "yes to Europe!" (« Oui à l'Europe ! ») on opening accession negotiations with the EU is rejected by 76.8% of voters.
  • 5 June 2005: the Schengen Agreement and the Dublin Regulation are approved by 54.6% of voters.
  • 25 September 2005: the extension of the free movement of persons to the ten new members of the European Union is accepted by 56.0% of voters.
  • 26 November 2006: a cohesion contribution of one billion for the ten new member states of the European Union (Eastern Europe Cooperation Act) is approved by 53.4% of voters.
  • 8 February 2009: the extension of the free movement of persons to new EU members Bulgaria and Romania is approved by 59.61% of voters.
  • 17 May 2009: introduction of biometric passports, as required by the Schengen acquis, is approved by 50.15% of voters.
  • 17 June 2012: the federal popular initiative "international agreements: let the people speak!" (« Accords internationaux : la parole au peuple ! ») on requiring all international treaties to be approved in a referendum launched by the Campaign for an Independent and Neutral Switzerland is rejected by 75.3% of voters.
  • 9 February 2014: the federal popular initiative "against mass immigration", which would limit the free movement of people from EU member states, is accepted by 50.3% of voters.
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  #189  
Old 21.11.2018, 14:22
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Re: SVP self-determination initiative

For starter perhaps the a glance at this report by the federal council from a few years ago, and this information on accepting the protocol 14. Good reading material in this context.
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It could mean that any International Treaty which was made without the possibility of referendum are not binding,
That's how I read it.

The interpretation in 1971 was that due to its §58 (whis says that ECHR is cancelable anytime) it wasn't subject to a mandatory referendum, and the federal parliament decided to not subject the issue to a optional referendum.

However, protocol 14 was indeed subject to an optional referendum (which wasn't taken). Now, that protocol actually changes the convention's text so one can argue that implicitly the convention altogether was indeed subject to a referendum even though that wouldn't have been a "yes/no" vote. Other protocols came into force as well, I think at least one was also subject to an optional referendum.

Lots of fodder for lots of ugly arguments if the Initiative passes.

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, and not that a referendum had to actually have taken place on any International Treaty for it to be binding.
Yup, no actual vote necessary, having been subject to an optional referendum is enough. That's what everybody says.
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  #190  
Old 21.11.2018, 14:38
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Re: SVP self-determination initiative

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You didn't actually read the article then? That was done in 2016, more than 2 years AFTER the vote to see what people still thought of it. The other poll referred to was in February 2016, also 2 years AFTER the vote. The purpose was to see how the EU migrant crisis might have affected opinions.

Made a bit of a fool of yourself there.
Oh shit. You're right. I completely made an ass of myself.

I hunted down the gfs stats on the MEI - on the 21st of January 2014 the results were 30% to 43% for, and 38 to 50% against ... and the MEI passed.
(https://www.gfsbern.ch/de-ch/Detail/...9-februar-2014)

Compared to the 3rd of November 2018 gfs stat on the SBI ... 29% - 37% for, and 53% - 61% against ... I must admit that things don't look too good for the SBI passing. (https://www.gfsbern.ch/de-ch/Detail/...vember-2018-15)
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  #191  
Old 21.11.2018, 14:52
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Re: SVP self-determination initiative

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For starter perhaps the a glance at this report by the federal council from a few years ago, and this information on accepting the protocol 14. Good reading material in this context.
Ok, thanks!

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The interpretation in 1971 was that due to its §58 (whis says that ECHR is cancelable anytime) it wasn't subject to a mandatory referendum, and the federal parliament decided to not subject the issue to a optional referendum.

Sooo ... the government did not permit the ECHR treaty (which has a court making binding judgement's on internal Swiss law and justice) to be subject to a vote by the Swiss citizens, on the basis that it could be canceled any time. And now that anyone is the least bit questioning that same treaty, nearly 50 years later, all hell is breaking loose. Yeah, I see that as a problem.

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Lots of fodder for lots of ugly arguments if the Initiative passes.
Sounds to me like it's time to to some re-evaluations on some of these treaties which were made by another generation and decades ago. It can't hurt, can it. If these treaties really are that sacrosanct and critical to the HR and well-being of the Swiss people, they should prevail.

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Yup, no actual vote necessary, having been subject to an optional referendum is enough. That's what everybody says.
In that case I don't think I have any issue with it - I am for all binding International treaties being voted on by the citizens.

See, I see these International treaties as a slippery slope to less and less Democratic power of the citizens. It starts with us being told that this is a binding treaty but "don't worry. We live in a Direct Democracy, and as such can cancel or renegotiate it any time we, the people, want it to be.". And then time passes, circumstances change, and in those interval years all sorts of new things become part of that initial treaty - modifications, new appendages, more policies and treaties reliant one on the other .. and so on ... Then comes a time when the Direct Democracy says "We want to renegotiate that treaty ... it's not working so great for us anymore" and what happens? Those same people who were telling us we had the right to renegotiate or cancel it are now telling the people that they should be ashamed of themselves for even wanting that, that it's impossible to renegotiate,let alone cancel ... etc ...
This is why I personally have grown extremely wary of these so-called harmless and retractable International treaties ... and I am not the only one.
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Old 21.11.2018, 16:18
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Re: SVP self-determination initiative

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Sooo ... the government did not permit the ECHR treaty (which has a court making binding judgement's on internal Swiss law and justice) to be subject to a vote by the Swiss citizens, on the basis that it could be canceled any time. And now that anyone is the least bit questioning that same treaty, nearly 50 years later, all hell is breaking loose. Yeah, I see that as a problem.
Lack of basic knowledge including not having read the actual proposition, not reading one's own links, unwillingness to consider 50 years ago different approaches may have been used ...

You sound way too much like Phos to make this worth continuing.
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  #193  
Old 21.11.2018, 16:22
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Re: SVP self-determination initiative

@EAB "I am for all binding International treaties being voted on by the citizens."

Did you read
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17 June 2012: the federal popular initiative "international agreements: let the people speak!" (« Accords internationaux : la parole au peuple ! ») on requiring all international treaties to be approved in a referendum launched by the Campaign for an Independent and Neutral Switzerland is rejected by 75.3% of voters.
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  #194  
Old 21.11.2018, 16:45
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Re: SVP self-determination initiative

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Lack of basic knowledge including not having read the actual proposition, not reading one's own links, unwillingness to consider 50 years ago different approaches may have been used ...

You sound way too much like Phos to make this worth continuing.
Now, now, no need to bash Phos!

Phos has been absent since March 21st - and is not marked "banned"
So keep the fights fair.
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  #195  
Old 21.11.2018, 18:40
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Re: SVP self-determination initiative

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Lack of basic knowledge
Rather relative .. so, compared to what?

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including not having read the actual proposition
False.

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not reading one's own links
Yep, caught me on that one single instance.

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unwillingness to consider 50 years ago different approaches may have been used ...
False. It is precisely because circumstance have changed as dramatically as they have that I am for what I am for.


If I misquoted what you said please do point me to the error I made.
And do go easy on me - I am outnumbered in this discussion several to one - it's very similar to discussing the topic with Operation Libero ... though not exactly as extreme.
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  #196  
Old 21.11.2018, 18:47
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Re: SVP self-determination initiative

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Rather relative .. so, compared to what?

False.

Yep, caught me on that one single instance.

False. It is precisely because circumstance have changed as dramatically as they have that I am for what I am for.

If I misquoted what you said please do point me to the error I made.
And do go easy on me - I am outnumbered in this discussion several to one - it's very similar to discussing the topic with Operation Libero ... though not exactly as extreme.
" I am outnumbered in this discussion several to one" So tell us again how you believe the vote result will look like
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Old 21.11.2018, 18:52
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Re: SVP self-determination initiative

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" I am outnumbered in this discussion several to one" So tell us again how you believe the vote result will look like
What percentile of EF users are Swiss citizens?
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  #198  
Old 21.11.2018, 19:03
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Re: SVP self-determination initiative

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What percentile of EF users are Swiss citizens?
70%?

Strange question to ask of an internet forum where the users are anonymous
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Old 21.11.2018, 20:58
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Re: SVP self-determination initiative

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70%?
Lol, you mean 70% didn't figure out the brown sugar thing....and still live in Swiss...
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Old 22.11.2018, 17:51
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Re: SVP self-determination initiative

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70%?

Strange question to ask of an internet forum where the users are anonymous
And you know this how?

You were the one who insinuated that the ratio of pro vs anti people in EF were indicative of how 'the vote result will look like'.
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