Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Living in Switzerland > Swiss politics/news  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #201  
Old 22.11.2018, 19:17
marton's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Kt. Zürich
Posts: 10,589
Groaned at 472 Times in 405 Posts
Thanked 19,409 Times in 10,247 Posts
marton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond repute
Re: SVP self-determination initiative

Quote:
View Post
And you know this how?

You were the one who insinuated that the ratio of pro vs anti people in EF were indicative of how 'the vote result will look like'.
No, I did not so insinuate??

You claimed you were outnumbered here so you were brave to continue!

Sometimes I use irony to make people stop and think about what has just been said.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank marton for this useful post:
  #202  
Old 22.11.2018, 19:47
st2lemans's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Lugano
Posts: 31,587
Groaned at 2,354 Times in 1,712 Posts
Thanked 38,385 Times in 18,115 Posts
st2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond repute
Re: SVP self-determination initiative

Quote:
View Post
So tell us again how you believe the vote result will look like
In Ticino, 70% YES.

Tom
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank st2lemans for this useful post:
  #203  
Old 22.11.2018, 20:03
curley's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: canton ZH
Posts: 12,643
Groaned at 206 Times in 171 Posts
Thanked 14,462 Times in 7,473 Posts
curley has a reputation beyond reputecurley has a reputation beyond reputecurley has a reputation beyond reputecurley has a reputation beyond reputecurley has a reputation beyond reputecurley has a reputation beyond repute
Re: SVP self-determination initiative

Quote:
View Post
In Ticino, 70% YES.

Tom
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank curley for this useful post:
  #204  
Old 22.11.2018, 20:39
EAB EAB is offline
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Bern, Switzerland
Posts: 533
Groaned at 121 Times in 52 Posts
Thanked 432 Times in 215 Posts
EAB has earned some respectEAB has earned some respect
Re: SVP self-determination initiative

Quote:
View Post
No, I did not so insinuate??
Are you asking me?

Quote:
You claimed you were outnumbered here so you were brave to continue!
I did no such thing - I never said I was 'brave'.

Quote:
Sometimes I use irony to make people stop and think about what has just been said.
And sometimes it seems that only you, and maybe the voices inside your head, get your irony.
Reply With Quote
  #205  
Old 22.11.2018, 20:52
marton's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Kt. Zürich
Posts: 10,589
Groaned at 472 Times in 405 Posts
Thanked 19,409 Times in 10,247 Posts
marton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond repute
Re: SVP self-determination initiative

Quote:
View Post
Are you asking me? No, not asking. I posted I did not so insinuate

I did no such thing - I never said I was 'brave'. True, I said you were brave, almost verging on a compliment!

And sometimes it seems that only you, and maybe the voices inside your head, get your irony. As in every Internet forum you are entitled to have your opinion
Answers in red colour!
Reply With Quote
  #206  
Old 22.11.2018, 21:02
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: CH
Posts: 10,732
Groaned at 346 Times in 282 Posts
Thanked 15,640 Times in 8,014 Posts
greenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond repute
Re: SVP self-determination initiative

Quote:
View Post
No, I did not so insinuate??

You claimed you were outnumbered here so you were brave to continue!

Sometimes I use irony to make people stop and think about what has just been said.
Irony is too subtle. Try sarcasm.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank greenmount for this useful post:
  #207  
Old 22.11.2018, 22:48
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Zürich
Posts: 362
Groaned at 27 Times in 19 Posts
Thanked 327 Times in 173 Posts
Rjellsch has an excellent reputationRjellsch has an excellent reputationRjellsch has an excellent reputationRjellsch has an excellent reputation
Re: SVP self-determination initiative

If the ECHR declares migration to be a human right, would the results of this initiative be any more or less relevant?
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank Rjellsch for this useful post:
This user groans at Rjellsch for this post:
  #208  
Old 23.11.2018, 00:29
Banned
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: CH-IT-AR
Posts: 90
Groaned at 47 Times in 25 Posts
Thanked 81 Times in 50 Posts
Brianzoeu is considered unworthyBrianzoeu is considered unworthyBrianzoeu is considered unworthy
Re: SVP self-determination initiative

Quote:
View Post
If the ECHR declares migration to be a human right, would the results of this initiative be any more or less relevant?
Good point!
Reply With Quote
This user groans at Brianzoeu for this post:
  #209  
Old 23.11.2018, 01:03
marton's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Kt. Zürich
Posts: 10,589
Groaned at 472 Times in 405 Posts
Thanked 19,409 Times in 10,247 Posts
marton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond repute
Re: SVP self-determination initiative

Quote:
View Post
If the ECHR declares migration to be a human right, would the results of this initiative be any more or less relevant?
The ECHR is about overseeing and enforcing conformance to the “European Convention on Human Rights". It does not declare new rights so your question is meaningless.

Anyway migrants are covered, look here.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank marton for this useful post:
  #210  
Old 23.11.2018, 17:35
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Zürich
Posts: 362
Groaned at 27 Times in 19 Posts
Thanked 327 Times in 173 Posts
Rjellsch has an excellent reputationRjellsch has an excellent reputationRjellsch has an excellent reputationRjellsch has an excellent reputation
Re: SVP self-determination initiative

The document you mentioned deals with the rights of migrants. My question deals with the idea that every person has the right to be a migrant. Based on my observations of Europe related thinking, I don't believe this is an unrealistic scenario.

I also believe there is also enough grey area that ECHR rulings could be used in this direction.



From the European Convention on Human Rights FAQ:


4. Does the Convention evolve?

Yes. The Convention evolves especially by means of the interpretation of its provisions by the European Court of Human Rights. Through its case-law the Court has made the Convention a living instrument; it has thus extended the rights afforded and has applied them to situations that were not foreseeable when the Convention was first adopted.

The Convention has also evolved as and when protocols have added new rights: for example in July 2003, with Protocol No. 13 concerning the abolition of the death penalty in all circumstances, or in April 2005, with Protocol No. 12 on non-discrimination.



Rather than dismiss it as a meaningless question, please entertain a scenario where the Council of Europe, EU, ECHR adopts a position that migration is a human right.


Quote:
View Post
The ECHR is about overseeing and enforcing

conformance to the “European Convention on Human Rights". It does not declare new rights so your question is meaningless.

Anyway migrants are covered, look here.

Last edited by Rjellsch; 23.11.2018 at 17:46.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Rjellsch for this useful post:
  #211  
Old 25.11.2018, 14:07
marton's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Kt. Zürich
Posts: 10,589
Groaned at 472 Times in 405 Posts
Thanked 19,409 Times in 10,247 Posts
marton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond repute
Re: SVP self-determination initiative

Initiative has been rejected, over 60% against.

Pity the SVP does not devote their considerable resources to more worthy causes instead of wasting them.
Reply With Quote
The following 4 users would like to thank marton for this useful post:
The following 2 users groan at marton for this post:
  #212  
Old 25.11.2018, 14:10
Tom1234's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Kanton Luzern
Posts: 15,770
Groaned at 522 Times in 414 Posts
Thanked 23,268 Times in 9,400 Posts
Tom1234 has a reputation beyond reputeTom1234 has a reputation beyond reputeTom1234 has a reputation beyond reputeTom1234 has a reputation beyond reputeTom1234 has a reputation beyond reputeTom1234 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: SVP self-determination initiative

Quote:
View Post
Initiative has been rejected, over 60% against.
.
Which means, worryingly, that nearly 40% were for it.
Reply With Quote
  #213  
Old 25.11.2018, 14:12
st2lemans's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Lugano
Posts: 31,587
Groaned at 2,354 Times in 1,712 Posts
Thanked 38,385 Times in 18,115 Posts
st2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond repute
Re: SVP self-determination initiative

Quote:
View Post
Which means, worryingly, that nearly 40% were for it.
Only 40%?

I find the 60% against to be worrying, as well as all those who voted in favor of domestic spying.

Tom
Reply With Quote
  #214  
Old 25.11.2018, 14:22
marton's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Kt. Zürich
Posts: 10,589
Groaned at 472 Times in 405 Posts
Thanked 19,409 Times in 10,247 Posts
marton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond repute
Re: SVP self-determination initiative

Quote:
View Post
The document you mentioned deals with the rights of migrants. My question deals with the idea that every person has the right to be a migrant. Based on my observations of Europe related thinking, I don't believe this is an unrealistic scenario.

I also believe there is also enough grey area that ECHR rulings could be used in this direction.

From the European Convention on Human Rights FAQ:

4. Does the Convention evolve?

Yes. The Convention evolves especially by means of the interpretation of its provisions by the European Court of Human Rights. Through its case-law the Court has made the Convention a living instrument; it has thus extended the rights afforded and has applied them to situations that were not foreseeable when the Convention was first adopted.

The Convention has also evolved as and when protocols have added new rights: for example in July 2003, with Protocol No. 13 concerning the abolition of the death penalty in all circumstances, or in April 2005, with Protocol No. 12 on non-discrimination.

Rather than dismiss it as a meaningless question, please entertain a scenario where the Council of Europe, EU, ECHR adopts a position that migration is a human right.
It would really help our discussion if you were to define what you mean by "every person has the [human] right to be a migrant".

How would this be different from the United Nations International Convention on the Protection of the Rights of All Migrant Workers and Members of Their Families or the European Convention on the Legal Status of Migrant Workers?

I see you have now moved your goalposts and no longer just post about the ECHR but also the Council of Europe, EU adopts a position that migration is a human right.
Reply With Quote
  #215  
Old 25.11.2018, 14:22
Caleb's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Zürich
Posts: 1,099
Groaned at 14 Times in 12 Posts
Thanked 1,950 Times in 764 Posts
Caleb has a reputation beyond reputeCaleb has a reputation beyond reputeCaleb has a reputation beyond reputeCaleb has a reputation beyond reputeCaleb has a reputation beyond reputeCaleb has a reputation beyond repute
Re: SVP self-determination initiative

When will we know the results of the vote count?
Reply With Quote
  #216  
Old 25.11.2018, 14:23
st2lemans's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Lugano
Posts: 31,587
Groaned at 2,354 Times in 1,712 Posts
Thanked 38,385 Times in 18,115 Posts
st2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond repute
Re: SVP self-determination initiative

Quote:
View Post
When will we know the results of the vote count?
http://www.teletext.ch/RSILA1/109

Tom
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank st2lemans for this useful post:
  #217  
Old 25.11.2018, 14:24
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: SVP self-determination initiative

Quote:
View Post
Only 40%?

I find the 60% against to be worrying, as well as all those who voted in favor of domestic spying.

Tom
Maybe the self-determination thing was just too big a step to attract a majority? That seems to be the way with some initiatives. They go in for the full monty, it gets rejected because it's just a bit too much and they come back at a later date with a slightly diluted version which appeals to a broader base?
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank for this useful post:
  #218  
Old 25.11.2018, 14:25
Caleb's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Zürich
Posts: 1,099
Groaned at 14 Times in 12 Posts
Thanked 1,950 Times in 764 Posts
Caleb has a reputation beyond reputeCaleb has a reputation beyond reputeCaleb has a reputation beyond reputeCaleb has a reputation beyond reputeCaleb has a reputation beyond reputeCaleb has a reputation beyond repute
Re: SVP self-determination initiative

Yeah, I know you can follow it in the papers (10min. ago I saw the latest estimates in NZZ, where they estimate 33% YES only). But I meant the official results.
Reply With Quote
  #219  
Old 25.11.2018, 14:29
st2lemans's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Lugano
Posts: 31,587
Groaned at 2,354 Times in 1,712 Posts
Thanked 38,385 Times in 18,115 Posts
st2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond repute
Re: SVP self-determination initiative

Quote:
View Post
Yeah, I know you can follow it in the papers (10min. ago I saw the latest estimates in NZZ, where they estimate 33% YES only). But I meant the official results.
That is the offical results.

Tom
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank st2lemans for this useful post:
  #220  
Old 25.11.2018, 14:35
Caleb's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Zürich
Posts: 1,099
Groaned at 14 Times in 12 Posts
Thanked 1,950 Times in 764 Posts
Caleb has a reputation beyond reputeCaleb has a reputation beyond reputeCaleb has a reputation beyond reputeCaleb has a reputation beyond reputeCaleb has a reputation beyond reputeCaleb has a reputation beyond repute
Re: SVP self-determination initiative

Quote:
View Post
That is the offical results.

Tom
I misspoke: I meant the FINAL count.
Reply With Quote
Reply




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
SVP launch new Free Movement initiative Medea Fleecestealer Swiss politics/news 184 06.03.2018 08:41
New SVP Initiative omtatsat Daily life 100 25.06.2016 17:42
Family fiscal initiative by SVP (24 Nov.2013) MrVertigo Swiss politics/news 24 23.10.2013 19:11
SVP's latest initiative on migration threatens EU agreements jrspet Swiss politics/news 125 26.05.2011 13:50


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 12:28.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0