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  #241  
Old 26.11.2018, 13:32
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Re: SVP self-determination initiative

Not perfect at all- but at least in Switzerland, the official pre vote booklet issued to all voters, does have to put forward the arguments for and against- are officially agreed upon and scrutinised for lies and untruths.

No-way could it have included the pure lies peddled by Bo JO and co.
Said it before, but Politicians should not be allowed to get away with pushing lies, as big as a bus- and à la second-hand care sales tactics- in an official campaign. I hope the prosecution against him goes ahead and is succesful.
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  #242  
Old 26.11.2018, 18:00
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Re: SVP self-determination initiative

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In a perfect world perhaps… And don’t forget that the best way to lie is to tell the truth, but not all of it. (Thanks to Robert Heinlein)
In what way does the fact that we're not living in a perfect world refute what I said?
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  #243  
Old 27.11.2018, 09:00
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Re: SVP self-determination initiative

Meanwhile is the SVP starting a whole new campaign, the Begrenzungsinitiative: They came up with a completely new idea... they want to have a vote that the Swiss should be able to limit and control immigration completely on their own again.


How different! Nothing to do with past tries to stop the Schengen treaty through the back door.
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Old 27.11.2018, 09:19
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Re: SVP self-determination initiative

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Meanwhile is the SVP starting a whole new campaign, the Begrenzungsinitiative: They came up with a completely new idea... they want to have a vote that the Swiss should be able to limit and control immigration completely on their own again.

How different! Nothing to do with past tries to stop the Schengen treaty through the back door.
Seems like a good idea, when it is voted out then the Govt. can say the MEI initiative was replaced with this one and back to business as usual with the EU!
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  #245  
Old 27.11.2018, 11:40
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Re: SVP self-determination initiative

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There are anyway many examples in Switzerland of repeated referendums.
There are several examples in Ireland as well, apart from the two on EU treaties, ones that come to mind are: abolishing the upper House of Parliament - rejected twice and changing the method of voting from PR to FPP, also rejected twice.

There are even examples of where the people voted parties in to government, while rejecting constitutional changes supported by the parties, when the elections were held on the same day.
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  #246  
Old 27.11.2018, 11:51
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Re: SVP self-determination initiative

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Not perfect at all- but at least in Switzerland, the official pre vote booklet issued to all voters, does have to put forward the arguments for and against- are officially agreed upon and scrutinised for lies and untruths.
In Ireland for each constitutional referendum a commission, chaired by a senior member of the judiciary is responsible for the provision of factual information on the topic.

It also has the power to issue a correction in cases where politicians venture into the land of tall tales. Knowing that the commission could issue a statement tomorrow morning saying what you said in a debate today was BS definitely has an impact on politicians behave.
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  #247  
Old 27.11.2018, 12:04
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Re: SVP self-determination initiative

If anyone would like to join the crowdfunding for the Prosecutor, Marcus J Ball- that would be great. Thanks:

https://www.crowdfunder.co.uk/brexitjusticeprosecution
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Old 27.11.2018, 13:06
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Re: SVP self-determination initiative

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Meanwhile is the SVP starting a whole new campaign, the Begrenzungsinitiative.
Where do I sign?

Tom
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  #249  
Old 27.11.2018, 13:10
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Re: SVP self-determination initiative

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Meanwhile is the SVP starting a whole new campaign, the Begrenzungsinitiative: They came up with a completely new idea... they want to have a vote that the Swiss should be able to limit and control immigration completely on their own again.


How different! Nothing to do with past tries to stop the Schengen treaty through the back door.
Strangely enough the folks on here who are most supportive of the SVPs repeated tries to derail the bilaterals are the ones who are most vociferous that other countries should not be allowed a second vote.
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  #250  
Old 27.11.2018, 13:16
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Re: SVP self-determination initiative

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Where do I sign?

Tom
Back in may... they already got the 100k signatures and handed it in in August. I guess they assumed it would be a part 2 of last weeks initiative. The text is refreshingly short... basically two points:
1. We don't want freedom of movement and be fully controlling immigration
2. We want to stop the Schengen treaty.


The arguments are literally "they are taking our jobs"... as if the opposite hasn't been proven time and time again.


I sincerely hope they crash land even harder as this time around.
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  #251  
Old 27.11.2018, 14:50
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Re: SVP self-determination initiative

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Meanwhile is the SVP starting a whole new campaign, the Begrenzungsinitiative: They came up with a completely new idea... they want to have a vote that the Swiss should be able to limit and control immigration completely on their own again.
That's been launched in summer already.
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  #252  
Old 27.11.2018, 15:21
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Re: SVP self-determination initiative

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That's been launched in summer already.
Braking news: Due to global warming January is now considered summer https://www.bk.admin.ch/ch/d/pore/vi/vis483.html
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  #253  
Old 27.11.2018, 16:49
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Re: SVP self-determination initiative

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Braking news: Due to global warming January is now considered summer https://www.bk.admin.ch/ch/d/pore/vi/vis483.html
... or even longer since
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  #254  
Old 28.11.2018, 14:47
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Re: SVP self-determination initiative

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Back in may... they already got the 100k signatures and handed it in in August. I guess they assumed it would be a part 2 of last weeks initiative. The text is refreshingly short... basically two points:
1. We don't want freedom of movement and be fully controlling immigration
2. We want to stop the Schengen treaty.


The arguments are literally "they are taking our jobs"... as if the opposite hasn't been proven time and time again.


I sincerely hope they crash land even harder as this time around.
I really like this initiative, not in the way that I gonna vote yes. But it's finally an SVP initiative which states clearly the outcome of a yes. SBI,(MEI) and Asylgesetzrevision were all really blurry.
I'm surprised that they formulate it that direct, if they loose this vote, they loose alot of their arguments for debates.

I'm not sure they crash as hard as we might think now.
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  #255  
Old 28.11.2018, 15:04
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Re: SVP self-determination initiative

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I really like this initiative, not in the way that I gonna vote yes. But it's finally an SVP initiative which states clearly the outcome of a yes. SBI,(MEI) and Asylgesetzrevision were all really blurry.
I'm surprised that they formulate it that direct, if they loose this vote, they loose alot of their arguments for debates.

I'm not sure they crash as hard as we might think now.
Not really.

The no side are going to have to come out all guns blazing. It's going to be a bit like with Trump in the USA. When people suddenly have to defend things that they have taken for granted forever, they suddenly realize their arguments aren't as strong or obvious as they thought. And screaming and working themslves into a fury instead can be more counter-productive than they realize.

I think the SVP are thinking tactically here and long term. The initiative has all the hallmarks and all the right buttons waiting to be pushed. It could be one hell of a ride.

If they lose, well, what do you want, did you really believe that stuff was ever going to happen anyway? But the opposition and especially the left will have taken some ugly scars for it.

If they win, well they won't really, but for the SVP a vote is a success if they can get significantly more than their regular voter base to vote yes, because it destroys the stance of the other parties that the SVP is isolated and nobody else goes for that shit.

If they really do win, well that's actually going to be bad for them, tactically speaking. But they know how not to win.
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  #256  
Old 28.11.2018, 17:26
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Re: SVP self-determination initiative

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Not really.

The no side are going to have to come out all guns blazing. It's going to be a bit like with Trump in the USA. When people suddenly have to defend things that they have taken for granted forever, they suddenly realize their arguments aren't as strong or obvious as they thought. And screaming and working themslves into a fury instead can be more counter-productive than they realize.

I think the SVP are thinking tactically here and long term. The initiative has all the hallmarks and all the right buttons waiting to be pushed. It could be one hell of a ride.

If they lose, well, what do you want, did you really believe that stuff was ever going to happen anyway? But the opposition and especially the left will have taken some ugly scars for it.

If they win, well they won't really, but for the SVP a vote is a success if they can get significantly more than their regular voter base to vote yes, because it destroys the stance of the other parties that the SVP is isolated and nobody else goes for that shit.

If they really do win, well that's actually going to be bad for them, tactically speaking. But they know how not to win.
I see your point.
But if they ask the people do you want free movement (Personenfreizügigkeit) or not, and the vote is no, they will have a hard time to legitimate any future initiative which contests the free movement directly or indirectly.
At the moment they have the very comfortable stance, yes the people voted for free movement, but they were deceived with "Ventilklausel" and "flankierende Massnahmen."

I agree, the campaign will be ugly. I like that the left will be put to test though. I hope they can finally provide some viable solutions for immigration politics.
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  #257  
Old 28.11.2018, 17:53
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Re: SVP self-determination initiative

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I see your point.
But if they ask the people do you want free movement (Personenfreizügigkeit) or not, and the vote is no, they will have a hard time to legitimate any future initiative which contests the free movement directly or indirectly.
At the moment they have the very comfortable stance, yes the people voted for free movement, but they were deceived with "Ventilklausel" and "flankierende Massnahmen."

I agree, the campaign will be ugly. I like that the left will be put to test though. I hope they can finally provide some viable solutions for immigration politics.
Immigration is solving itself, in 2017 only 31,000 came from the European Union, this is the lowest figure since the free movement of people accord with the "old" EU members came fully into effect in 2007.

The peak year for immigration was 2008 with 100,000. Immigration has been steadily decreasing since 2014.

Source

SVP are living in the past fighting non existent problems.
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Old 28.11.2018, 18:12
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Re: SVP self-determination initiative

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SVP are living in the past fighting non existent problems.
The huge amount of cross-border workers is a very real problem.

Tom
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Old 28.11.2018, 19:05
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Re: SVP self-determination initiative

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Immigration is solving itself, in 2017 only 31,000 came from the European Union, this is the lowest figure since the free movement of people accord with the "old" EU members came fully into effect in 2007.
Converted to the UK population this would be 250'000. Hmm, what are the actual UK Numbers again ?? O right, less than 200'000 in the peak year. That was 2016. What else happened then? Right, Brexit.

One could also compare the numbers to Germany. Apart from 2015 the Swiss numbers are considerably higher. What is happening in Germany again? Oh, yes Menschenjagd in Chemnitz and the AfD gaining seats in state elections. Even in Bayern where the CSU, the SVP's big role model, is the ruling party.

Statistics
UK: https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulat...on-eu-citizens

Germany: http://www.bamf.de/SharedDocs/Anlage...ublicationFile

Switzerland: https://www.bfs.admin.ch/bfs/de/home...wanderung.html
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Old 28.11.2018, 21:22
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Re: SVP self-determination initiative

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Immigration is solving itself, in 2017 only 31,000 came from the European Union, this is the lowest figure since the free movement of people accord with the "old" EU members came fully into effect in 2007.

The peak year for immigration was 2008 with 100,000. Immigration has been steadily decreasing since 2014.

Source

SVP are living in the past fighting non existent problems.
You are saying the problems dissapeared just at the moment when/because the numbers began to drop?
I can't really follow that thought
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