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  #261  
Old 29.11.2018, 00:47
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Re: SVP self-determination initiative

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Immigration is solving itself, in 2017 only 31,000 came from the European Union, this is the lowest figure since the free movement of people accord with the "old" EU members came fully into effect in 2007.

The peak year for immigration was 2008 with 100,000. Immigration has been steadily decreasing since 2014.

Source

SVP are living in the past fighting non existent problems. :roll eyes:

Everyone knows that you can't get a residence and work permit unless some criteria are met e.g. salary etc. Wouldn't be more realistic and logical if they set the conditions a EU worker has to meet in order to be allowed to work and live here? This is a false problem and relatively easy to solve.


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The huge amount of cross-border workers is a very real problem.

Tom
Yes Tom, I wonder why do they come. Perhaps because there are companies that need them?

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Strangely enough the folks on here who are most supportive of the SVPs repeated tries to derail the bilaterals are the ones who are most vociferous that other countries should not be allowed a second vote.
Of course. It's typical and I wonder if people are even aware of the level of dissonance.
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  #262  
Old 29.11.2018, 00:51
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Re: SVP self-determination initiative

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Yes Tom, I wonder why do they come. Perhaps because there are companies that need them?
Nope, around here it's because foreign companies set up shop, and bring their workforce with them, refusing to hire locals.

Scumbags.

Tom
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  #263  
Old 29.11.2018, 00:57
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Re: SVP self-determination initiative

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Nope, around here it's because foreign companies set up shop, and bring their workforce with them, refusing to hire locals.

Scumbags.

Tom
In which fields? In the German side there are companies that need such a super-specialised work force so that they would be more than happy to hire locals. It's just not possible because there aren't enough people able to do those jobs. So why should we mix up everything and treat every local problem as a general one? This is what SVP is always doing. They simplify and try to impose the harshest solutions for problems that could be solved in a much more practical, logical and realistic way.
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  #264  
Old 29.11.2018, 10:24
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Re: SVP self-determination initiative

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Everyone knows that you can't get a residence and work permit unless some criteria are met e.g. salary etc. Wouldn't be more realistic and logical if they set the conditions a EU worker has to meet in order to be allowed to work and live here? This is a false problem and relatively easy to solve.
I actually don't know that. I know that CH is part of Schengen, so as a German do I enjoy the freedom of movement. I can get up tomorrow and move to Switzerland and the Swiss have no legal ground to not give me a residence permit. Same is true for any Swiss moving to my country.
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  #265  
Old 29.11.2018, 11:13
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Re: SVP self-determination initiative

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I actually don't know that.I can get up tomorrow and move to Switzerland and the Swiss have no legal ground to not give me a residence permit. Same is true for any Swiss moving to my country.
Not true. Restrictions can be applied on the basis of public policy, public security or public health and a handbrake option in economic emergencies. And in addition people can be returned should they fail to establish a viable economy existence as set out in the rules.
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  #266  
Old 29.11.2018, 11:40
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Re: SVP self-determination initiative

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I actually don't know that. I know that CH is part of Schengen, so as a German do I enjoy the freedom of movement. I can get up tomorrow and move to Switzerland and the Swiss have no legal ground to not give me a residence permit. Same is true for any Swiss moving to my country.
Not at all. You can stay up to 90 days without any reason or permit, and up to 6 months if they issue you a job seeking permit.

Also, they do check the salary you're going to be paid if you get a job. I think there are a lot of legal means to ensure nobody takes advantage of the system or puts pressure on the local wages. But of course, playing the immigration card is always a winner in politics because people are either not very well informed, or the concoction is so well executed you really have to be used to think with your own head in order to understand what's behind certain campaigns. Which most people, here or anywhere else, let's admit it - are not.
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  #267  
Old 29.11.2018, 12:12
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Re: SVP self-determination initiative

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I actually don't know that. I know that CH is part of Schengen, so as a German do I enjoy the freedom of movement. I can get up tomorrow and move to Switzerland and the Swiss have no legal ground to not give me a residence permit. Same is true for any Swiss moving to my country.
FMOP in the EU working/residence sense is nothing to do with Schengen. Schengen is about border controls (and a bunch of other stuff) but not your freedom to work in another country. Ireland, for example, is subject to FMOP (as an EU member) but is not part of Schengen.
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  #268  
Old 29.11.2018, 12:31
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Re: SVP self-determination initiative

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Not true. Restrictions can be applied on the basis of public policy, public security or public health and a handbrake option in economic emergencies. And in addition people can be returned should they fail to establish a viable economy existence as set out in the rules.
In fact people can be returned just becaiuse their home country asks for them to be sent back.
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  #269  
Old 29.11.2018, 12:43
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Re: SVP self-determination initiative

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I see your point.
But if they ask the people do you want free movement (Personenfreizügigkeit) or not, and the vote is no, they will have a hard time to legitimate any future initiative which contests the free movement directly or indirectly.
I think their thinking is more long term than that.

Say the initiative is defeated by something like 38% YES, 62% NO.

That would be pretty good for the SVP because

1) The topic was pretty far fetched to begin with, and anyway the business arm of the SVP didn't want that to get through anyway. So the business arm continues to fund the game.
2) SVP clearly mobilizes much more than their regular voter base, so clearly showing their is still room for them to grow.
3) A base mark is established, and any future vote in which anything connected with FMOP and that has more than that basemark of approval will be interpreted as approval of the topic gaining ground.

The no camp on the other hand need to hope for something tighter, say 48% YES, 52 % No, so that

1) the business arm of the SVP shits itself because they very almost shot themselves in the foot, maybe even engendering a split in the party.
2) same as above, but the no camp will probably have to accept this as part of the price
3) The base mark is too high and in futire votes the SVP will fail to pull that off again, creating the impresion the SVP is losing its mojo.

So neither side wiill be motivated to campaign too hard.

Interesting times ahead?
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  #270  
Old 29.11.2018, 15:35
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Re: SVP self-determination initiative

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I think their thinking is more long term than that.

Say the initiative is defeated by something like 38% YES, 62% NO.

That would be pretty good for the SVP because

1) The topic was pretty far fetched to begin with, and anyway the business arm of the SVP didn't want that to get through anyway. So the business arm continues to fund the game.
2) SVP clearly mobilizes much more than their regular voter base, so clearly showing their is still room for them to grow.
3) A base mark is established, and any future vote in which anything connected with FMOP and that has more than that basemark of approval will be interpreted as approval of the topic gaining ground.

The no camp on the other hand need to hope for something tighter, say 48% YES, 52 % No, so that

1) the business arm of the SVP shits itself because they very almost shot themselves in the foot, maybe even engendering a split in the party.
2) same as above, but the no camp will probably have to accept this as part of the price
3) The base mark is too high and in futire votes the SVP will fail to pull that off again, creating the impresion the SVP is losing its mojo.

So neither side wiill be motivated to campaign too hard.

Interesting times ahead?
You mean like Hillary winning the popular vote was her gaining ground?
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  #271  
Old 29.11.2018, 17:54
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Re: SVP self-determination initiative

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I actually don't know that. I know that CH is part of Schengen, so as a German do I enjoy the freedom of movement. I can get up tomorrow and move to Switzerland and the Swiss have no legal ground to not give me a residence permit. Same is true for any Swiss moving to my country.
a) that has nothing to do with Schengen

b) why would any Swiss want to move to Germany?

Tom
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  #272  
Old 29.11.2018, 21:46
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Re: SVP self-determination initiative

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In fact people can be returned just becaiuse their home country asks for them to be sent back.
I think that might be called extradition
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  #273  
Old 29.11.2018, 21:51
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Re: SVP self-determination initiative

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a) that has nothing to do with Schengen

b) why would any Swiss want to move to Germany?

Tom
Currywurst??
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  #274  
Old 29.11.2018, 21:51
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Re: SVP self-determination initiative

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b) why would any Swiss want to move to Germany?
The only two I know were for love, both married German women.
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  #275  
Old 29.11.2018, 22:40
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Re: SVP self-determination initiative

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In fact people can be returned just becaiuse their home country asks for them to be sent back.
Funny how those people neither feel flattered nor specially loved by their home countries.
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  #276  
Old 30.11.2018, 22:38
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Re: SVP self-determination initiative

For me, we can breathe again! Thanks, Switzerland!
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  #277  
Old 01.12.2018, 00:56
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Re: SVP self-determination initiative

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You mean like Hillary winning the popular vote was her gaining ground?
And how did it help her?
Apparently some of the SVP base is very anti-Trump...I find that fascinating.
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Old 01.12.2018, 01:22
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Re: SVP self-determination initiative

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Apparently,: some of the SVP base is very anti-Trump....
That, I had not known, but dumb people think dumbly so everything is possible. Bernie Sanders should have stood or a dead dog even Hilary was never going to win. My beer is more with Brexit - svp seem to love that (or did when it was 'cake and eat it'!
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  #279  
Old 01.12.2018, 14:15
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Re: SVP self-determination initiative

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Nope, around here it's because foreign companies set up shop, and bring their workforce with them, refusing to hire locals.

Scumbags.

Tom
Didn't one of the backers of the MEI refuse to hire Swiss for his company? IIRC he would only hire Germans because he could pay them less.
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  #280  
Old 01.12.2018, 14:21
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Re: SVP self-determination initiative

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And how did it help her?
Apparently some of the SVP base is very anti-Trump...I find that fascinating.
Remember there are 2 basic strands in the SVP. There's the Blocherite hard right types (Zürich fraktion) and there's the more moderate Bern fraction although a lot of them split off to form the BDP. I can see the Bern fraktion being appalled by Trump and the whole alt-right thing while the Zürich fraktion would love it.
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