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  #301  
Old 31.01.2020, 14:04
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Re: SVP self-determination initiative

This (in German) will tell you how your regular state pension is taxed in Germany.



https://www.einfach-rente.de/wie-wir...nte-versteuert


The additionally nasty part is that you also may have to pay health insurance and that is quite a bit as it is linked to your income.


Also:


(Year start pension - percentage taxed - percentage not taxed)


2018 - 76% - 24%
2019 - 78% - 22%
2020 - 80% - 20%
2021 - 81% - 19%

Last edited by roegner; 31.01.2020 at 14:06. Reason: Chart not working
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  #302  
Old 31.01.2020, 14:23
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Re: SVP self-determination initiative

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Horrid food
I'd rather die in poverty.
Everyone is free to do their own food shopping. I don't think anyone is force fed.
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  #303  
Old 31.01.2020, 14:58
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Re: SVP self-determination initiative

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Income tax may be far higher, there I agree. However pensions are only partially taxed in Germany. 9'600 Euro is merely the amount which is tax-free for everyone.

Only around one in four pensioners pay any income tax in Germany at present.
I think it is true that state pensions are not taxed. I'm not sure how tax on other income works out.

OTOH I am guessing that even if your Swiss pension is meagre by Swiss standards, it's generous by German standards so will probably be taxed.

Anyway, I'm not aware of many Swiss pensioners moving to Germany. If you're talking about Spain etc, that's a different story.
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  #304  
Old 31.01.2020, 14:58
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Re: SVP self-determination initiative

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That's your personal choice. Many Swiss disagree with you and have already moved there to save money.
Very few.

There's only about 90,000 Swiss nationals living in Germany (compared with over 200k in France) and 2/3 of those are dual nationals - I would imagine more likely German origin than Swiss origin. Of those only about 15% are of pension age so perhaps 13,000 pensioners of which max about 4,000 will be Swiss national only.

That's not "many".
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  #305  
Old 31.01.2020, 15:04
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Re: SVP self-determination initiative

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I think it is true that state pensions are not taxed. I'm not sure how tax on other income works out.

OTOH I am guessing that even if your Swiss pension is meagre by Swiss standards, it's generous by German standards so will probably be taxed.

Anyway, I'm not aware of many Swiss pensioners moving to Germany. If you're talking about Spain etc, that's a different story.
Nope - as stated above, 80% of the state pension is taxed in Germany

Spain and Thailand are apparently the most popular retirement countries for Swiss nationals.
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  #306  
Old 31.01.2020, 16:34
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Re: SVP self-determination initiative

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This (in German) will tell you how your regular state pension is taxed in Germany.


https://www.einfach-rente.de/wie-wir...nte-versteuert

The additionally nasty part is that you also may have to pay health insurance and that is quite a bit as it is linked to your income.

Also:

(Year start pension - percentage taxed - percentage not taxed)

2018 - 76% - 24%
2019 - 78% - 22%
2020 - 80% - 20%
2021 - 81% - 19%
Health insurance is a complex EU deal!! If you retire to Germany as a Swiss pensioner then in principle you have to buy health insurance from a Swiss health insurer who is registered to sell in Germany. There is a special expensive rate you have to pay! There are exceptions and options.

Gets even more complicated if you have a Swiss pension and pensions from other countries then you need to get an EU ruling on where and from whom you are allowed to by this insurance.

Basically this is to protect you to ensure you can always get health insurance.

I did look at moving to Germany on retirement which is a complex discussion! Basically the cost of living including rent is lower, taxes are higher and health insurance can be higher.

German friends who have studied this idea claim the best solution is to buy a Swiss place near the German border with a Swiss mortgage and do all your shopping over the border.
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  #307  
Old 31.01.2020, 16:57
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Re: SVP self-determination initiative

I always understood that you have to take out the health insurance from the country you lived and worked longest in?
So if you retire to Germany after having worked your whole life in CH, it would need to be a CH health insurance.


If you have worked/lived longer in Germany than in Switzerland you could take the German health insurance
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  #308  
Old 31.01.2020, 16:59
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Re: SVP self-determination initiative

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I did look at moving to Germany on retirement which is a complex discussion! Basically the cost of living including rent is lower, taxes are higher and health insurance can be higher.
Can here being the key word. I was a resident in Germany for 3 years in between stays in CH. My health insurance remained Swiss (full access to CH healthcare identical to CH obligatory insurance). The premiums can vary wildly. The cheapest one (which I went with) however was 125 francs per month cheaper than if I had been resident in CH.

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German friends who have studied this idea claim the best solution is to buy a Swiss place near the German border with a Swiss mortgage and do all your shopping over the border.
If you can afford the CH property fine. The mortgage in CHF makes sense if your main income is in CHF. However the saving on this choice is relatively small as shopping is not generally a large proportion of expenditure.
A variation on what you suggested could be a property in Germany near to the CH border but with a mortgage in CHF.
In this case utility bills would be lower. Health insurance could be lower if you pick the cheapest insurer. Shopping would also be lower.
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  #309  
Old 31.01.2020, 17:10
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Re: SVP self-determination initiative

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I always understood that you have to take out the health insurance from the country you lived and worked longest in?
So if you retire to Germany after having worked your whole life in CH, it would need to be a CH health insurance.


If you have worked/lived longer in Germany than in Switzerland you could take the German health insurance
I know a Swiss couple who have retired to Hungary and I understand they have both a Swiss and a Hungarian health insurance, with the base obligatory part being from a Swiss insurer and the extras being from a local provider. Basically the hospitals and doctors they get to see there are all high end top notch and private which is more than they could have afforded in Switzerland. The husband has a pre-existing chronic condition (he receives Swiss IV benefits) but that didn't cause any problems there.

So apparently it is possible to mix and match systems.

Last edited by amogles; 31.01.2020 at 17:30.
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  #310  
Old 31.01.2020, 17:11
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Re: SVP self-determination initiative

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If you can afford the CH property fine. The mortgage in CHF makes sense if your main income is in CHF. However the saving on this choice is relatively small as shopping is not generally a large proportion of expenditure.
It's 3-4x my mortgage expenditure.

Tom
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  #311  
Old 31.01.2020, 17:14
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Re: SVP self-determination initiative

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It's 3-4x my mortgage expenditure.
For how many people (the shopping)? Ours is less as we chose to go for a higher monthly mortgage rate.
For people who still rent it will be a different story.
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Old 31.01.2020, 17:15
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Re: SVP self-determination initiative

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Can here being the key word. I was a resident in Germany for 3 years in between stays in CH. My health insurance remained Swiss (full access to CH healthcare identical to CH obligatory insurance). The premiums can vary wildly. The cheapest one (which I went with) however was 125 francs per month cheaper than if I had been resident in CH.

If you can afford the CH property fine. The mortgage in CHF makes sense if your main income is in CHF. However the saving on this choice is relatively small as shopping is not generally a large proportion of expenditure.
A variation on what you suggested could be a property in Germany near to the CH border but with a mortgage in CHF.
In this case utility bills would be lower. Health insurance could be lower if you pick the cheapest insurer. Shopping would also be lower.
According to this site, utility prices are 25% higher in Germany.

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  #313  
Old 31.01.2020, 17:18
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Re: SVP self-determination initiative

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utility prices are 25% higher in Germany.
I don't see the relevance of the table or the site.
I found mine (the total cost of heating, electricity, phone, internet altogether) to be a lot lower whilst living there. And I am talking about the amounts to pay simply in money.
And disregarding the fact that my income was CHF.
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Old 31.01.2020, 17:18
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Re: SVP self-determination initiative

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According to this site, utility prices are 25% higher in Germany.

Attachment 138574
I understand electricity is very costly in Germany compared to CH.
Other utilities are way cheaper, however, for example, phone, internet etc. (but as far as internet is concerned, also way crappier)
Taxes are higher in Germany but it is difficult to put an exact figure to it because Germany has many more loopholes and opt-outs than Switzerland.
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Old 31.01.2020, 17:30
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Re: SVP self-determination initiative

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I always understood that you have to take out the health insurance from the country you lived and worked longest in?
So if you retire to Germany after having worked your whole life in CH, it would need to be a CH health insurance.


If you have worked/lived longer in Germany than in Switzerland you could take the German health insurance
As per my post, it gets complex!

If you worked in UK, Germany and Switzerland and retire in Germany then if you worked longest in UK you likely would be eligible for free UK health insurance; might change after Brexit.
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Old 31.01.2020, 18:46
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Re: SVP self-determination initiative

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I always understood that you have to take out the health insurance from the country you lived and worked longest in?
So if you retire to Germany after having worked your whole life in CH, it would need to be a CH health insurance.
It's not always as straightforward as that. There are many rules and exceptions to those rules, depending upon the country.

See this link from ASO, the association for Swiss living abroad, which sets out the rules for moving within the EU/EFTA countries:
https://www.aso.ch/en/consultation/l...-euefta-states

and here, for moving outside of the EU/EFTA countries:
https://www.aso.ch/en/consultation/l...outside-euefta
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Old 31.01.2020, 18:52
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Re: SVP self-determination initiative

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Income tax may be far higher, there I agree. However pensions are only partially taxed in Germany. 9'600 Euro is merely the amount which is tax-free for everyone.
Only around one in four pensioners pay any income tax in Germany at present.
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German taxes are not lower.
I did not say they were.
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It's not always as straightforward as that. There are many rules and exceptions to those rules, depending upon the country.
And for some UK nationals after the post-Brexit transition period it may become even more complex.
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