Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Living in Switzerland > Swiss politics/news  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #41  
Old 15.10.2018, 22:33
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Zürich
Posts: 347
Groaned at 1 Time in 1 Post
Thanked 452 Times in 194 Posts
Ziger has a reputation beyond reputeZiger has a reputation beyond reputeZiger has a reputation beyond reputeZiger has a reputation beyond repute
Re: SVP self-determination initiative

Quote:
View Post
And a side note to anyone who thinks the EU is somehow related to this all

I thought this needed emphasizing. This has nothing to do with the EU. Switzerland is party to over 4000 bilateral and around 1000 multilateral contracts/conventions. According to the initiative, if any of those contradicts the Swiss constitution, the government has to re-negotiate them so that they are in accordance with the constitution. If this is not possible, they must be terminated.

Seriously? Re-negotiate a multilateral convention?


In one fell swoop, the entire pragmatism of the Swiss system, which has successfully dealt with the lack of a constitutional court for years, will be gone. In its place will be a rigid system that won’t allow the Swiss government to honor its commitments under international law.
Reply With Quote
The following 6 users would like to thank Ziger for this useful post:
  #42  
Old 15.10.2018, 22:36
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Vaud
Posts: 364
Groaned at 7 Times in 5 Posts
Thanked 347 Times in 164 Posts
chomp has earned the respect of manychomp has earned the respect of manychomp has earned the respect of many
Re: SVP self-determination initiative

Quote:
View Post
I thought this needed emphasizing. This has nothing to do with the EU. Switzerland is party to over 4000 bilateral and around 1000 multilateral contracts/conventions. According to the initiative, if any of those contradicts the Swiss constitution, the government has to re-negotiate them so that they are in accordance with the constitution. If this is not possible, they must be terminated.

Seriously? Re-negotiate a multilateral convention?


In one fell swoop, the entire pragmatism of the Swiss system, which has successfully dealt with the lack of a constitutional court for years, will be gone. In its place will be a rigid system that won’t allow the Swiss government to honor its commitments under international law.
Exactly.
Reply With Quote
  #43  
Old 15.10.2018, 22:37
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Vaud
Posts: 1,361
Groaned at 98 Times in 63 Posts
Thanked 1,404 Times in 813 Posts
yacek has a reputation beyond reputeyacek has a reputation beyond reputeyacek has a reputation beyond reputeyacek has a reputation beyond repute
Re: SVP self-determination initiative

Quote:
View Post
And a side note to anyone who thinks the EU is somehow related to this all: the ECHR is a text related to the Council of Europe, of which Switzerland is a member. The only European country not party to the ECHR is Belarus...
And to anybody thinking that international law (Völkerrecht) equals to human rights, well, it doesn't.
And if anybody thinks a court is the best idea ever, one needs not look further than US supreme court where one can predict with 99.9% accuracy how the justices decide depending on what president nominated them.
Reply With Quote
  #44  
Old 15.10.2018, 22:57
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Vaud
Posts: 364
Groaned at 7 Times in 5 Posts
Thanked 347 Times in 164 Posts
chomp has earned the respect of manychomp has earned the respect of manychomp has earned the respect of many
Re: SVP self-determination initiative

Quote:
View Post
And to anybody thinking that international law (Völkerrecht) equals to human rights, well, it doesn't.
And if anybody thinks a court is the best idea ever, one needs not look further than US supreme court where one can predict with 99.9% accuracy how the justices decide depending on what president nominated them.
In the Swiss legal system international law is the only source of human rights law that can protect the citizenry from a federal law that violates human rights.
Also well done with the German vocabulary but Völkerrecht is not really the preferred term by jurists in the German language anymore. We tend to use the term öffentliches internationales Recht in order to distinguish it from the notion of ius cogens which is a specific type of international norm.
Also comparing the SCOTUS to the EcourtHR is pointless. Judges are appointed completely differently and the powers of the latter are far more restricted than the former.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank chomp for this useful post:
  #45  
Old 15.10.2018, 23:21
Elu Elu is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2017
Location: In the fog
Posts: 255
Groaned at 12 Times in 11 Posts
Thanked 370 Times in 178 Posts
Elu has an excellent reputationElu has an excellent reputationElu has an excellent reputationElu has an excellent reputation
Re: SVP self-determination initiative

Quote:
View Post
Is there a reason you spell Switzerland with a small "s"? Some sort of Freudian slip related to your POV?
Nope I honestly didn‘t know better , I learnt that once but i don‘t remember the rules about capital letters in English(?).

Where‘s the Freudian slip?
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Elu for this useful post:
  #46  
Old 16.10.2018, 00:29
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Leimbach, Zürich
Posts: 6,094
Groaned at 356 Times in 289 Posts
Thanked 6,905 Times in 3,464 Posts
EdwinNL has a reputation beyond reputeEdwinNL has a reputation beyond reputeEdwinNL has a reputation beyond reputeEdwinNL has a reputation beyond reputeEdwinNL has a reputation beyond repute
Re: SVP self-determination initiative

Quote:
View Post
In the Swiss legal system international law is the only source of human rights law that can protect the citizenry from a federal law that violates human rights
International rules that protect the individuals rights are not at stake here, there is simply no way of cancelling or renegotiate those fundamental laws. (in disregard to what SVP opponents want us to think.)
Reply With Quote
  #47  
Old 16.10.2018, 00:51
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Vaud
Posts: 364
Groaned at 7 Times in 5 Posts
Thanked 347 Times in 164 Posts
chomp has earned the respect of manychomp has earned the respect of manychomp has earned the respect of many
Re: SVP self-determination initiative

Quote:
View Post
International rules that protect the individuals rights are not at stake here, there is simply no way of cancelling or renegotiate those fundamental laws. (in disregard to what SVP opponents want us to think.)
This is simply not true. If you read the proposed modification to the constitution, the federal council would have to renegotiate a treaty if a contradiction arises due to a subsequent modification of the constitution. Ig a future initiative were to then change the constitution in a way that contradicts the ECHR, the federal council would have to withdraw Switzerland from the ECHR. Sure right now there is no contradiction between the ECHR and the federal constitution, but remember that back when Switzerland signed the ECHR there was no referendum possible for treaties. The new article 190 would not therefore raise the ECHR to the same level as federal laws; any federal law would also be able to violate ECHR rights much as can be done with constitutional rights. As much as many people without a legal education might think otherwise, the constitution cannot protect fundamental rights precisely because of article 190.
Reply With Quote
  #48  
Old 16.10.2018, 04:42
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Leimbach, Zürich
Posts: 6,094
Groaned at 356 Times in 289 Posts
Thanked 6,905 Times in 3,464 Posts
EdwinNL has a reputation beyond reputeEdwinNL has a reputation beyond reputeEdwinNL has a reputation beyond reputeEdwinNL has a reputation beyond reputeEdwinNL has a reputation beyond repute
Re: SVP self-determination initiative

Quote:
View Post
This is simply not true. If you read the proposed modification to the constitution, the federal council would have to renegotiate a treaty if a contradiction arises due to a subsequent modification of the constitution. Ig a future initiative were to then change the constitution in a way that contradicts the ECHR, the federal council would have to withdraw Switzerland from the ECHR. Sure right now there is no contradiction between the ECHR and the federal constitution, but remember that back when Switzerland signed the ECHR there was no referendum possible for treaties. The new article 190 would not therefore raise the ECHR to the same level as federal laws; any federal law would also be able to violate ECHR rights much as can be done with constitutional rights. As much as many people without a legal education might think otherwise, the constitution cannot protect fundamental rights precisely because of article 190.
UN has fundamental and non-fundamental agreements, this is only about the non-fundamental rights since even if a UN member would want to the fundamental ones cannot be cancelled if they please since that option simply does not exist.

https://www.selbstbestimmungsinitiat...initiativtext/. (also in French and Italian)

Quote:
Art. 56a Völkerrechtliche Verpflichtungen
1 Bund und Kantone gehen keine völkerrechtlichen Verpflichtungen ein, die der Bundesverfassung widersprechen.
2 Im Fall eines Widerspruchs sorgen sie für eine Anpassung der völkerrechtlichen Verpflichtungen an die Vorgaben der Bundesverfassung, nötigenfalls durch Kündigung der betreffenden völkerrechtlichen Verträge.
3 Vorbehalten bleiben die zwingenden Bestimmungen des Völkerrechts.
Or:

Quote:
Art. 56a Obligations de droit international
1 La Confédération et les cantons ne contractent aucune obligation de droit international qui soit en conflit avec la Constitution fédérale.
2 En cas de conflit d’obligations, ils veillent ŕ ce que les obligations de droit international soient adaptées aux dispositions constitutionnelles, au besoin en dénonçant les traités internationaux concernés.
3 Les rčgles impératives du droit international sont réservées.
So yes it is true.
Reply With Quote
  #49  
Old 16.10.2018, 08:24
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Vaud
Posts: 364
Groaned at 7 Times in 5 Posts
Thanked 347 Times in 164 Posts
chomp has earned the respect of manychomp has earned the respect of manychomp has earned the respect of many
Re: SVP self-determination initiative

Quote:
View Post
UN has fundamental and non-fundamental agreements, this is only about the non-fundamental rights since even if a UN member would want to the fundamental ones cannot be cancelled if they please since that option simply does not exist.

https://www.selbstbestimmungsinitiat...initiativtext/. (also in French and Italian)



Or:



So yes it is true.
Pacts I and II actually both confer ‘fundamental rights’ (Grundrechte/Droits fondamentaux) however both treaties were accepted without referendums being possible and neither has a judicial arm like the ECHR. The difference between the pacts is that one confers 1st generation fundamental rights, whereas the other confers 2nd generation fundamental rights.
I agree that from a public international law perspective, such treaties would remain binding on Switzerland. But if Swiss law decides to hold the Constitution above international agreements, then the Swiss judiciary will not be able to continue protecting these rights. The only option would then be for a victim to appeal to his country of second nationality (if he has one), who could then sue Switzerland for treaty violation in the ICJ.
According to the jurisprudence of the federal court, only pact II (1st generation fundamental rights) are directly enforceable norms. Even today you cannot invoke Pact I before a Swiss court on its own.
Reply With Quote
  #50  
Old 16.10.2018, 10:22
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Ostschweiz
Posts: 7,760
Groaned at 263 Times in 226 Posts
Thanked 9,304 Times in 4,898 Posts
Urs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond repute
Re: SVP self-determination initiative

Quote:
View Post
Currently in Switzerland we don’t have a system of constitutional justice: neither abstract or concrete control can be exerciced when a federal law violates the constitution.
Correct.
Quote:
View Post
This is because of article 190 of the federal constitution which requires authorities to enforce federal laws and treaties without exception.
Nope. This is because §189 doesn't give the Bundesgericht, or some body, the necessary authority.
Reply With Quote
  #51  
Old 16.10.2018, 10:44
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Vaud
Posts: 364
Groaned at 7 Times in 5 Posts
Thanked 347 Times in 164 Posts
chomp has earned the respect of manychomp has earned the respect of manychomp has earned the respect of many
Re: SVP self-determination initiative

Quote:
View Post
Nope. This is because §189 doesn't give the Bundesgericht, or some body, the necessary authority.
Jein.
The constitutional principle the hierarchy of norms in principle establishes the supremacy of the Constitution over federal laws. The reason why the federal court cannot exercise abstract constitution control over federal laws is due to art. 190 Cst. which requires the unconditional application of treaties and federal laws (an exception to the aforementioned constitutional principle) and article 82 LTF (federal law on the federal court) a contrario.

Last edited by chomp; 16.10.2018 at 11:06. Reason: Replaced abbreviations
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank chomp for this useful post:
  #52  
Old 16.10.2018, 11:43
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Ostschweiz
Posts: 7,760
Groaned at 263 Times in 226 Posts
Thanked 9,304 Times in 4,898 Posts
Urs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond repute
Re: SVP self-determination initiative

At this time there's no judicial body with the powers of a constitutional court. Thus it would make no sense to say that the federal court is bound only to the law that hasn't been ruled to be in contradiction with the constitution. You don't provide law for a situation that can't possibly exist.

If a court with that power were established, it can be safely assumed that potential contradictions with existinglaw would be removed simultaneousyl.
Reply With Quote
  #53  
Old 16.10.2018, 12:00
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Vaud
Posts: 364
Groaned at 7 Times in 5 Posts
Thanked 347 Times in 164 Posts
chomp has earned the respect of manychomp has earned the respect of manychomp has earned the respect of many
Re: SVP self-determination initiative

Quote:
View Post
At this time there's no judicial body with the powers of a constitutional court. Thus it would make no sense to say that the federal court is bound only to the law that hasn't been ruled to be in contradiction with the constitution. You don't provide law for a situation that can't possibly exist.

If a court with that power were established, it can be safely assumed that potential contradictions with existinglaw would be removed simultaneousyl.
This is a point that many German jurists misunderstand about the Swiss legal system. Whereas in Germany only one body is permitted to examine the constitutionality of norms and decisions, in Switzerland every authority must systematically examine the constitutionality of decisions and cantonal norms. There is therefore no need for such a court in the Swiss system.
Reply With Quote
  #54  
Old 16.10.2018, 23:36
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Vaud
Posts: 364
Groaned at 7 Times in 5 Posts
Thanked 347 Times in 164 Posts
chomp has earned the respect of manychomp has earned the respect of manychomp has earned the respect of many
Re: SVP self-determination initiative

Quote:
View Post
I didn't see this earlier. You've misunderstood what's meant by the rčgles impératives du droit international. These rules are called peremptory norms in English and are very limited in scope and should not be confused with human rights.
The wikipedia article on the topic is fairly correct: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peremptory_norm
Reply With Quote
  #55  
Old 20.10.2018, 12:50
Bozza's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Zurich
Posts: 512
Groaned at 12 Times in 8 Posts
Thanked 335 Times in 181 Posts
Bozza has made some interesting contributions
Re: SVP self-determination initiative

Quote:
View Post
I hope you never get to vote in switzerland. Not because you don't agree with the SVP (neither do I in this topic), but because have no sense for the responsibility a voter has).
I'll send you a PM in 6 years so you can tell my Gemeinde to not give me the passport.
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank Bozza for this useful post:
  #56  
Old 20.10.2018, 14:03
curley's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: canton ZH
Posts: 9,825
Groaned at 139 Times in 118 Posts
Thanked 10,512 Times in 5,590 Posts
curley has a reputation beyond reputecurley has a reputation beyond reputecurley has a reputation beyond reputecurley has a reputation beyond reputecurley has a reputation beyond reputecurley has a reputation beyond repute
Re: SVP self-determination initiative

The last sentence Mr. Rösti said in the Arena was: "We want to implement the "Masseneinwanderungsinitiative" and the "Ausschaffungsinitiative". Which makes "d'SVP töibelet" cross a Swiss mind.

Töibele is not translatable. It's throwing a tantrum but small children specific.


Sounds like they want to shoot sparrows with cannons (an other saying here )

I've not made up my mind yet, these are just my latest observations.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank curley for this useful post:
  #57  
Old 23.10.2018, 12:30
Elu Elu is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2017
Location: In the fog
Posts: 255
Groaned at 12 Times in 11 Posts
Thanked 370 Times in 178 Posts
Elu has an excellent reputationElu has an excellent reputationElu has an excellent reputationElu has an excellent reputation
Re: SVP self-determination initiative

Quote:
View Post
I'll send you a PM in 6 years so you can tell my Gemeinde to not give me the passport.
In 6 year it might not be necessary.
One is never too old to learn you know
Reply With Quote
  #58  
Old 23.10.2018, 13:09
Treverus's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Luxembourg
Posts: 11,449
Groaned at 288 Times in 245 Posts
Thanked 21,398 Times in 7,797 Posts
Treverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond repute
Re: SVP self-determination initiative

Quote:
View Post
How is it to live in a black and white world? I'm not an SVP voter either, but it's just intellectual laziness to dismiss a political movement/idea simply by calling them racists (which isn't even true for most of SVP anyways).

PS: same is obviously true on the other side.


I don't think it is intellectual laziness to call the SVP racist. The posters most of us have witnessed over the last 20 years leave little to discuss that the party loves to discriminate against foreigners, especially those with dark skin or Muslim religion. Essentially everyone who is different. You can now debate all day long if this is "only" xenophobic, discriminatory or outright racist. I personally don't care: Any political movement trying to fish for votes by scapegoating minorities is not worth to vote for. Trying to fearmonger the lower educated part of the Swiss society does not make it better.


There are completely valid points to discuss when it comes to the EU, the Schengen treaty, the bilaterals and any other form of international agreement. But those debates should be open, transparent and clear. The SVP lost the Schengen vote and since then has launched one initiative after another addressing singled-out topics which could get them a lever to cancel out the whole Schengen agreement. That's just not right and an abuse of the direct democracy. If a topic has several aspects do you have to vote on the package. And any decent democrat can accept defeat and not try over and over again to turn back time.


I have personally met pretty decent SVP supporters who are old-school conservative Swiss. They are embarrassed about the sort of campaigns their more populist party members pushed through. But embarrassment isn't enough. If you support this sort of political behavior do you damage the democracy and the very core of those Swiss values the SVP claims to defend.
Reply With Quote
The following 6 users would like to thank Treverus for this useful post:
This user groans at Treverus for this post:
  #59  
Old 26.10.2018, 15:11
EAB EAB is offline
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Bern, Switzerland
Posts: 533
Groaned at 121 Times in 52 Posts
Thanked 432 Times in 215 Posts
EAB has earned some respectEAB has earned some respect
Re: SVP self-determination initiative

Quote:
View Post
Giving the government no room to manoeuvre and instead forcing them to break bilateral deals can't be a good idea. If this was in force back in 2014 when Einwanderung Initiative was voted in, my understanding is that Switzerland would have had to implement Einwanderung fully and lose free movement and probably end up in Swixit.

In that case half of us would be out on our Asses by now.
What a bewildering post.
Perhaps you are not familiar with what the main objective is behind Swiss people voting on initiatives and referendums ... ? The objective, and the reason why any of us Swiss vote at all, is because we want the decision of the people/Kantons to matter all the way to the constitutional amendment or new law being put into force by our National Parliament.

The MEI vote gave the government 'room to manoeuvre' over three years so that they could renegotiate the FMOP with the EU, and had the SBI been enacted before the MEI the Swiss government, as well as the EU, would have known full well that they had better get with renegotiating the FMOP agreement or else - instead of the sham of negotiations that actually followed.

And, no, we would never have had 'Swixit' because we are not an EU vassal state!

Last edited by EAB; 26.10.2018 at 15:54.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank EAB for this useful post:
  #60  
Old 26.10.2018, 15:15
EAB EAB is offline
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Bern, Switzerland
Posts: 533
Groaned at 121 Times in 52 Posts
Thanked 432 Times in 215 Posts
EAB has earned some respectEAB has earned some respect
Re: SVP self-determination initiative

You know you could have at least sought to present the topic without bias ... as in presenting links that are for and against the initiative.

The official initiative website:
- https://www.selbstbestimmungsinitiative.ch/

Sites against the initiative:
- https://www.selbstbestimmungsinitiativenein.ch/de
- https://www.sbi-nein.ch/
Reply With Quote
Reply




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
SVP launch new Free Movement initiative Medea Fleecestealer Swiss politics/news 184 06.03.2018 09:41
New SVP Initiative omtatsat Daily life 100 25.06.2016 18:42
Family fiscal initiative by SVP (24 Nov.2013) MrVertigo Swiss politics/news 24 23.10.2013 20:11
SVP launches foreign criminals initiative The Local Swiss news via The Local 0 03.10.2011 14:28
SVP's latest initiative on migration threatens EU agreements jrspet Swiss politics/news 125 26.05.2011 14:50


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 00:12.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0