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  #61  
Old 26.10.2018, 14:53
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Re: SVP self-determination initiative

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In the Swiss legal system international law is the only source of human rights law that can protect the citizenry from a federal law that violates human rights.
That seems to be quite a stark claim.
You mentioned Article 190 of the Federal Constitution:

The Federal Supreme Court and the other judicial authorities apply the federal acts and international law.

Are you implying that Federal Acts can lawfully be made in violation of Title 2 > Chapter 1 Fundamental Rights?

Could you please expound on that a bit more?
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  #62  
Old 26.10.2018, 16:00
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Re: SVP self-determination initiative

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What a bewildering post.
Perhaps you are not familiar with what the main objective is behind Swiss people voting on initiatives and referendums ... ? The objective, and the reason why any of us Swiss vote at all, is because we want the decision of the people/Kantons to matter all the way to the constitutional amendment or new law being put into force by our National Parliament.

The MEI vote gave the government 'room to manoeuvre' over three years so that they could renegotiate the FMOP with the EU, and had the SBI been enacted before the MEI the Swiss government, as well as the EU, would have known full well that they had better get with renegotiating the FMOP agreement or else - instead of the sham of negotiations that actually followed.

And, no, we would never have had 'Swixit' because we are not an EU vassal state!
Also a bewildering post.

Renegotiating the FMOP with the EU is an impossible dream.

Either you have FMOP or not; it is binary!
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Old 26.10.2018, 16:14
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Re: SVP self-determination initiative

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Either you have FMOP or not; it is binary!
NOT!

Tom
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Old 26.10.2018, 16:32
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Re: SVP self-determination initiative

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Also a bewildering post.

Renegotiating the FMOP with the EU is an impossible dream.

Either you have FMOP or not; it is binary!
Norway and Lichtenstein beg to differ ... even we have a modified version of FMOP. But, sure, whatever you say ...
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Old 31.10.2018, 22:13
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Re: SVP self-determination initiative

For me this is a perversion of the referendum process.

The referendum process is to allow the people to propose changes.

The SVP have two Bundesrat and many in Nationalrat and in Standerat.
If they want to make changes they should do it via this political process.

If they cannot achieve success via the political process they should not attempt to make changes via the back door using the referendum process. This makes a mockery of democracy.
Consequently I always vote against such referenda.
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  #66  
Old 31.10.2018, 22:24
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Re: SVP self-determination initiative

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For me this is a perversion of the referendum process.

The referendum process is to allow the people to propose changes.

The SVP have two Bundesrat and many in Nationalrat and in Standerat.
If they want to make changes they should do it via this political process.

If they cannot achieve success via the political process they should not attempt to make changes via the back door using the referendum process. This makes a mockery of democracy.
Consequently I always vote against such referenda.
Wtf are you on about?!

This IS the political process in this country. And oi! We (the people) are not the back door.
How long have you lived here, mate?!

However, the ballot arrived today.
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Old 31.10.2018, 22:31
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Re: SVP self-determination initiative

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Norway and Lichtenstein beg to differ ... even we have a modified version of FMOP. But, sure, whatever you say ...
Not sure what you mean?
All EU/EEA nationals can work in Norway
All EU/EEA nationals are entitled to be workers in Norway.
EU/EEA nationals can move to Norway and start working right away,

Through a series of agreements, the most important of which is the European Economic Area (EEA) agreement, Norway is part of a free trade area with the EU, shares equal access to the EU internal market, and allows free movement with all 30 EEA states. It is part of the Schengen border-free area and related immigration and police cooperation.

Source

The free movement of persons is one of the core rights guaranteed in the European Economic Area (EEA), the extended Internal Market which unites all the EU Member States and three EEA EFTA States – Iceland, Liechtenstein and Norway.
It is perhaps the most important right for individuals, as it gives citizens of the 31 EEA countries the opportunity to live, work, establish business and study in any of these countries.

Source
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  #68  
Old 01.11.2018, 08:43
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Re: SVP self-determination initiative

Going back to be a baby where you dont have to make any decisions for yourself. Thats Swiss politics. Say YES to the referendum!
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  #69  
Old 01.11.2018, 22:14
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Re: SVP self-determination initiative

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For me this is a perversion of the referendum process.

The referendum process is to allow the people to propose changes.

The SVP have two Bundesrat and many in Nationalrat and in Standerat.
If they want to make changes they should do it via this political process.

If they cannot achieve success via the political process they should not attempt to make changes via the back door using the referendum process. This makes a mockery of democracy.
Consequently I always vote against such referenda.
Sorry, but what kind of quatsch is this!?
How are the SVP not 'the people'?
Is it a 'perversion' when any political party uses the referendum, or just when the SVP, who you obviously have a ranking hatred towards, do so?
Are all referendum's which are initiated from political parties a 'mockery of democracy', or just when they are initiated from the SVP?
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Old 01.11.2018, 22:26
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Re: SVP self-determination initiative

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Not sure what you mean?
All EU/EEA nationals can work in Norway
All EU/EEA nationals are entitled to be workers in Norway.
EU/EEA nationals can move to Norway and start working right away,
.....
You don't know what I mean?
Let me spell it out ... by asking a rhetorical question ... is it true or not that Norway, Lichtenstein and Switzerland all have differing/custom FMOP agreements?

If only one customized version of the FMOP exits it punches a huge hole in your claim that:

Quote:
Renegotiating the FMOP with the EU is an impossible dream.
Your second claim:

Quote:
Either you have FMOP or not; it is binary!
may be true in regards to being part of the EU's 'Single Market', but that does not at all mean that the FMOP agreement is in and of itself non-negotiable.

And I am positive that you know this very well.
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Old 01.11.2018, 22:28
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Re: SVP self-determination initiative

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That seems to be quite a stark claim.
You mentioned Article 190 of the Federal Constitution:

The Federal Supreme Court and the other judicial authorities apply the federal acts and international law.

Are you implying that Federal Acts can lawfully be made in violation of Title 2 > Chapter 1 Fundamental Rights?

Could you please expound on that a bit more?
Chomp, I'm still waiting for a reply on this.
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  #72  
Old 02.11.2018, 09:12
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Re: SVP self-determination initiative

Nothing to worry about folks. Its unlikely to pass, considering the scale of the opposition to it.

And even if it squeaks through, the government are sensible enough to do what they did with the MES referendum - apply it so diluted it wont matter anyway.

I look forward to the next silly tantrum the SVP throw. Their hissy-fits always make me chuckle.
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  #73  
Old 02.11.2018, 10:37
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Re: SVP self-determination initiative

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Nothing to worry about folks. Its unlikely to pass, considering the scale of the opposition to it.

And even if it squeaks through, the government are sensible enough to do what they did with the MES referendum - apply it so diluted it wont matter anyway.

I look forward to the next silly tantrum the SVP throw. Their hissy-fits always make me chuckle.
If it does not say goodbye to your future in Switzerland!
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  #74  
Old 02.11.2018, 13:04
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Re: SVP self-determination initiative

So far the most common arguments placed against the SBI are:

1. Fundamental Human Rights in Switzerland will be compromised

and

2. Switzerland will have to renegotiate and/or cancel thousands of international contracts

I have not seen any hard evidence for either of these two claims - and this while the anti-SBI groups refer to the SBI as being 'vague' and 'unclear'.

I have not signed a YES to the SBI yet, even though I have received the ballot in the mail a few days ago. I am holding out for any concrete evidence that either of those claims are true.
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Old 02.11.2018, 15:09
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Re: SVP self-determination initiative

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Are you implying that Federal Acts can lawfully be made in violation of Title 2 > Chapter 1 Fundamental Rights?
Chomp, I'm still waiting for a reply on this.
Yes, that's how it is.

See, Switzerland has no president which signs off or veto's acts. That's the job of the people. Any new or changed act will not come in force till a cool of period of 100 days has passed. During this period the people can gather 50k signatures which will force a popular vote on the new or changed act. If the popular vote passes or less than 50k sign the referendum the act becomes the Swiss law. Even when it contradicts the constitution.

Now you may ask next: Why does that not lead to some kind of constitutional crisis or overturning from the constitutional court?

Answer is simple. First, there is no constitutional court! Second, the people which has the power to approve or deny any new or changed act is also the body which has the power to change the constitution in any way they wish. Instead of changing the constitution the people can approve a contradicting law directly.
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  #76  
Old 02.11.2018, 17:52
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Re: SVP self-determination initiative

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Yes, that's how it is.

... Any new or changed act will not come in force till a cool of period of 100 days has passed. During this period the people can gather 50k signatures which will force a popular vote on the new or changed act. If the popular vote passes or less than 50k sign the referendum the act becomes the Swiss law. Even when it contradicts the constitution.
I'm not following.

Who has the power to create a new Federal Act, or by what procedure/s is a new Federal Act created in the first place? I need source references to legal texts (ie. the Swiss Constitution)

This part of the Constitution might be interesting:

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Art. 35 Upholding of fundamental rights
1 Fundamental rights must be upheld throughout the legal system.

2 Whoever acts on behalf of the state is bound by fundamental rights and is under a duty to contribute to their implementation.

3 The authorities shall ensure that fundamental rights, where appropriate, apply to relationships among private persons.

Art. 36 Restrictions on fundamental rights
1 Restrictions on fundamental rights must have a legal basis. Significant restrictions must have their basis in a federal act. The foregoing does not apply in cases of serious and immediate danger where no other course of action is possible.

2 Restrictions on fundamental rights must be justified in the public interest or for the protection of the fundamental rights of others.

3 Any restrictions on fundamental rights must be proportionate.

4 The essence of fundamental rights is sacrosanct.
The claim I was requesting clarification to was that Article 190 (The Federal Supreme Court and the other judicial authorities apply the federal acts and international law.) leads to the reality whereby In the Swiss legal system international law is the only source of human rights law that can protect the citizenry from a federal law that violates human rights.

It's still unclear to me how Article 190 supports this claim.

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Now you may ask next: Why does that not lead to some kind of constitutional crisis or overturning from the constitutional court?

Answer is simple. First, there is no constitutional court! Second, the people which has the power to approve or deny any new or changed act is also the body which has the power to change the constitution in any way they wish. Instead of changing the constitution the people can approve a contradicting law directly.
How is it then that the Federal Court judged the SVP "headscarf ban" initiative in the Valais to be 'invalid' due to it going 'against the freedom of religion and conscience' which 'is protected by the constitution'?

I have definitely read somewhere that the popular initiative is not without checks, and that initiatives can be dismissed on a couple grounds.
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Old 02.11.2018, 18:26
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Re: SVP self-determination initiative

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If it does not say goodbye to your future in Switzerland!
And say goodbye to any self determination-big daddy EU will take all that from you!
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  #78  
Old 02.11.2018, 18:56
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Re: SVP self-determination initiative

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I'm not following.

Who has the power to create a new Federal Act, or by what procedure/s is a new Federal Act created in the first place? I need source references to legal texts (ie. the Swiss Constitution)
The Federal Assembly. See Art. 148 https://www.admin.ch/opc/en/classifi...ndex.html#a148 and 163 Swiss constitutions https://www.admin.ch/opc/en/classifi...ndex.html#a163

See also:
https://www.bk.admin.ch/bk/en/home/d...ief-guide.html

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How is it then that the Federal Court judged the SVP "headscarf ban" initiative in the Valais to be 'invalid' due to it going 'against the freedom of religion and conscience' which 'is protected by the constitution'?
- The initiative was considered invalid before a popular vote was held.
- The initiative was not a federal but a cantonal one.
- It was declared invalid by the canton Valais parliament not the federal court.
- The parliament declared it invalid because it would be against federal law.
- Federal law and the Swiss constitution trumps cantonal law. Art. 46 of the Constitution https://www.admin.ch/opc/en/classifi...index.html#a46 and cantonal constitutions may not be against the Federal one. Art. 51 https://www.admin.ch/opc/en/classifi...index.html#a51

The federal court decision BGE 1C_76/2018 was more about what the canton Valais parliament can decide and if it overstepped its authority or did not follow canton Valais law by declaring the cantonal initiative as invalid. It did not.
https://www.bger.ch/ext/eurospider/l...=show_document
https://www.nzz.ch/schweiz/die-walli...tig-ld.1417862


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I have definitely read somewhere that the popular initiative is not without checks, and that initiatives can be dismissed on a couple grounds.
See Art. 139 https://www.admin.ch/opc/de/classifi...ndex.html#a139 of the Constitution what they are. But once a initiative on the federal level they passed a certain stage it can no longer be declared inadmissible.
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  #79  
Old 02.11.2018, 18:58
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Re: SVP self-determination initiative

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I'm not following.

Who has the power to create a new Federal Act, or by what procedure/s is a new Federal Act created in the first place? I need source references to legal texts (ie. the Swiss Constitution)

This part of the Constitution might be interesting:

The claim I was requesting clarification to was that Article 190 (The Federal Supreme Court and the other judicial authorities apply the federal acts and international law.) leads to the reality whereby In the Swiss legal system international law is the only source of human rights law that can protect the citizenry from a federal law that violates human rights.

It's still unclear to me how Article 190 supports this claim.

How is it then that the Federal Court judged the SVP "headscarf ban" initiative in the Valais to be 'invalid' due to it going 'against the freedom of religion and conscience' which 'is protected by the constitution'?

I have definitely read somewhere that the popular initiative is not without checks, and that initiatives can be dismissed on a couple grounds.
New federal acts are created by referendum, recently a successful one was the new Energy Act voted on 21 May 2017 whereas the Federal Act on the 2020 Pension Reforms failed 24 September.

In summary you draft a referendum (The federal popular initiative (German: Eidgenössische Volksinitiative, French: Initiative populaire fédérale, Italian: Iniziativa popolare federale), collect enough signatures then have to pass a couple of hurdles. First hurdle is it is not blocked by Parliament and secondly it gets enough votes.

You could always read Pierre Cormon, Swiss Politics for Complete Beginners.

Last edited by marton; 02.11.2018 at 19:10.
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Old 02.11.2018, 19:31
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Re: SVP self-determination initiative

Considering you claim to be Swiss and understand German I link to this two articles:
https://www.vimentis.ch/d/publikatio...r+Schweiz.html
https://www.nzz.ch/schweiz/schubert-...ssung-ld.82141


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New federal acts are created by referendum, recently a successful one was the new Energy Act voted on 21 May 2017 whereas the Federal Act on the 2020 Pension Reforms failed 24 September.

In summary you draft a referendum (The federal popular initiative (German: Eidgenössische Volksinitiative, French: Initiative populaire fédérale, Italian: Iniziativa popolare federale), collect enough signatures then have to pass a couple of hurdles. First hurdle is it is not blocked by Parliament and secondly it gets enough votes.
Sorry marton but that is grossly wrong. You are mixing up initiatives (proposal from the people to change the constitution) and referendum (veto of the people against a new or changed act from the federal assembly).

The people cannot(*) directly propose a new act or change of an act on federal level. They might do so in some cantons.

(*) There was a brief period from 2003 to 2009 when technically this possibility existed. But as it was too complicated and no actual law existed how that actually should have been done it was removed from the Swiss constitution. See the footnotes at the no longer existing Art. 139a of the constitution https://www.admin.ch/opc/de/classifi...dex.html#a139a

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You could always read Pierre Cormon, Swiss Politics for Complete Beginners.
May be you should have a look int the book again. Or Mr. Cormon is also wrong.
You might also read the "The Swiss Confederation – a brief guide" published by the Federal Chancellery https://www.bk.admin.ch/bk/en/home/d...ief-guide.html
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