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  #121  
Old 11.11.2018, 22:48
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Re: SVP self-determination initiative

Yawn. You’ve run out of arguments and are just continuing to troll.
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  #122  
Old 11.11.2018, 22:57
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Re: SVP self-determination initiative

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Well I’ll disregard the conceited insult but you’ve simply not been going to events of sufficient intellectual rigour. Every Swiss university law faculty has organised debates on this matter and these topics have all been raised.
Given that you’ve given ultimate recourse to insult, it behoves me to conclude that you, as previously suggested, you are a troll.
It wasn't meant as an insult. It was an honest observation.
But as astonishing as it may sound to you, being that I know nothing about you personally, I cannot simply assume that the notion of you yourself being without bias and/or prejudice as regards this matter is beyond the scope of possibility. Would you rather have me blindly except your word as fact, without skepticism or doubt?

But back to the issue - I don't think that the vast majority of the Swiss electorate attend debates and discussion at University Law Faculties. Certainly, when watching the various local debates occurring between the most vocal and active opponents to the SBI these, seemingly clear and obvious, issues do not come up.
What is discussed ad nausea is predominantly:

- The supposed 600 international treaties under threat
- The human rights dilemma of not having our Federal Supreme Court overruled by the ECHR, and Switzerland scrapping the ECHR treaty
- The crumbling of the Swiss export market due to the sudden lack of trust in the Swiss people and Constitution

... that's about it. Nothing about the VCLT etc ...

Which begs the question - if these University Law Faculties have such a clear and dire case against the SBI, why isn't it filtering into the general discourse of the anti-SBI parties, groups and organisations?
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  #123  
Old 11.11.2018, 23:04
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Re: SVP self-determination initiative

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Times change, a lot (A LOT) of things seemed improbable and then the unbelievable happened.
Indeed. And what I fail to see is that very same sentiment being applied to supranational organisations.

The more people I converse who are anti-SBI the more it seems that the fundamental issue is in fact something along the lines of localism/nationalism/decentralization vs centralization/globalization. People who are anti-SBI tend to be more favorable towards globalization in matters of both trade and government, whereas people who are pro-SBI tend to be ok with globalization in matters of trade, but not that of government. This, in my experience, seems to be where the proverbial buck stops.
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  #124  
Old 11.11.2018, 23:36
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Re: SVP self-determination initiative

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It wasn't meant as an insult. It was an honest observation.
But as astonishing as it may sound to you, being that I know nothing about you personally, I cannot simply assume that the notion of you yourself being without bias and/or prejudice as regards this matter is beyond the scope of possibility. Would you rather have me blindly except your word as fact, without skepticism or doubt?

But back to the issue - I don't think that the vast majority of the Swiss electorate attend debates and discussion at University Law Faculties. Certainly, when watching the various local debates occurring between the most vocal and active opponents to the SBI these, seemingly clear and obvious, issues do not come up.
What is discussed ad nausea is predominantly:

- The supposed 600 international treaties under threat
- The human rights dilemma of not having our Federal Supreme Court overruled by the ECHR, and Switzerland scrapping the ECHR treaty
- The crumbling of the Swiss export market due to the sudden lack of trust in the Swiss people and Constitution

... that's about it. Nothing about the VCLT etc ...

Which begs the question - if these University Law Faculties have such a clear and dire case against the SBI, why isn't it filtering into the general discourse of the anti-SBI parties, groups and organisations?
Your failure to have heard such arguments is supposed to be an argument in itself
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  #125  
Old 14.11.2018, 07:51
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Re: SVP self-determination initiative

Happily looks like this is going to sink without trace.

https://www.srf.ch/news/schweiz/abst...-svp-verhallen
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  #126  
Old 14.11.2018, 08:27
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Re: SVP self-determination initiative

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Happily looks like this is going to sink without trace.

https://www.srf.ch/news/schweiz/abst...-svp-verhallen
Bummer, though it should pass here no problem.

Tom
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  #127  
Old 14.11.2018, 09:01
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Re: SVP self-determination initiative

Yes. The Swiss will sell out to the EU mafia. They should not complain later when things go very very wrong!
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  #128  
Old 14.11.2018, 09:33
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Re: SVP self-determination initiative

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Your failure to have heard such arguments is supposed to be an argument in itself
LOL! I'm pretty sure you're just trolling at this point (and I mean that in the sense of commenting purely for the purpose of getting people riled up).

You can read, as can we all, that I answered the points brought up and then, purely as a side note, had the audacity to question the validity of these anti-SBI arguments based on the fact that these sorts of arguments are not making it into the incredibly numerous public events where very well educated people, on all sides of the issue, are debating the SBI. I was then told that essentially I, and arguably the vast majority of the Swiss electorate, was misinformed because we weren't making ourselves present at University Law Faculties!!

Sorry, but I don't buy the insinuation, whether it be intended or not, that short of attending University Law Faculties the Swiss electorate are misinformed in regards to these supposedly potent arguments.

Furthermore, I find it rather questionable that the person claiming to be privy to these discussions in University Law Faculties has not once brought up the other side of the discussion purportedly being had there ... unless it were the case that there, in fact, exists no other side at all and these are not so much discussions as they are lectures by people against the SBI.
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  #129  
Old 14.11.2018, 10:20
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Re: SVP self-determination initiative

@ EAB
Replying to a point you posted is not within the definition of "trolling", unless your point itself was trolling?

Anyway as a pleasant change from legal mazes, latest polling shows 58% against this initiative. As many people will have voted early it seems it is already dead in the water.
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  #130  
Old 14.11.2018, 11:19
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Re: SVP self-determination initiative

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@ EAB
Replying to a point you posted is not within the definition of "trolling", unless your point itself was trolling?
Wait, so let me get this straight ... according to you:

It is not possible to troll by replying to someone, unless the thing you are replying to was trolling. (I would love to see the source for this 'definition'? )

So, you accused me of trolling, and then replied to said trolling ... it follows then that, by your own 'definition', you .. .. .. .. TROLLED THE TROLL!!!

Quote:
Anyway as a pleasant change from legal mazes, latest polling shows 58% against this initiative. As many people will have voted early it seems it is already dead in the water.
I fail to see what that has to do with the topic of discussion .. just seems like more trolling to me.
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  #131  
Old 14.11.2018, 11:31
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Re: SVP self-determination initiative

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Wait, so let me get this straight ... according to you:

It is not possible to troll by replying to someone, unless the thing you are replying to was trolling. (I would love to see the source for this 'definition'? )

So, you accused me of trolling, and then replied to said trolling ... it follows then that, by your own 'definition', you .. .. .. .. TROLLED THE TROLL!!!

I fail to see what that has to do with the topic of discussion .. just seems like more trolling to me.
The topic is "SVP self-determination initiative" and you do not recognise that a poll about this initiative is relevant
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  #132  
Old 19.11.2018, 06:03
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Re: SVP self-determination initiative

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I know that you did not write it, but what a bunch of rubbish.

If I would be allowed to vote I'd be pro SVP on this.

A whole bunch of rules and rights that are granted to people are not to be cancelled and SVP knows this and already told long ago that this is not about the basic rights that we all have and keep without any change. But to keep EU jurisdiction out of the door and to allow Switzerland to have an independent national legal system where it is the Swiss who set the rules.

All these international institutions like EU and UN have been introduced with good meanings and good purposes, but they are no longer what they have been made for, they have become independent molochs who deny clarity on how they rule and work and they want to make themselves bigger and more important by self expending their responsibilities into fields that they never were ment to deal with. This is just another example of them attempting to make themselves bigger than they should be.

They can go to hell.
And If I may add: amen
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  #133  
Old 19.11.2018, 09:41
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Re: SVP self-determination initiative

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The topic is "SVP self-determination initiative" and you do not recognise that a poll about this initiative is relevant
Yes, I don't see how this information is the least bit useful as regards the goal of this thread, which was outlined, by the opening post:

Quote:
Any ideas. Yes. No.Undecided.
What the polls say hardly has any bearing on the substance of the initiative itself. Furthermore, there are numerous polls available, with varying results.
Polls are just polls after all.

But if you think that discussing polling numbers is constructive to the discussion of whether or not one should vote for this initiative, then by all means do carry on.
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  #134  
Old 19.11.2018, 09:55
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Re: SVP self-determination initiative

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...Furthermore, there are numerous polls available, with varying results....
No there aren't. There's been a couple with similar results.
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  #135  
Old 20.11.2018, 18:00
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Re: SVP self-determination initiative

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It cannot be good then ...

Conclusion
The Self-Determination Initiative is an attack on the Swiss legal system. The effects of it on the Swiss legal system would be extremely serious, since the initiative would endanger individual basic rights, legal certainty, stability and prosperity in Switzerland for decades to come. The possible chaos resulting from it can be seen in the present problems connected to Brexit. But unlike the UK, Switzerland would not terminate agreements with just one partner — all agreements with all countries would be in danger.
I have mixed feelings in observing how some could be truly concerned about potentially seeing Switzerland turning into a country that violates human rights.

I mean: Switzerland!

Not some country in the middle of nowhere where a self-appointed dictator is putting people in prison for no reason…Switzerland.
A country with an ancient and solid democratic tradition, guaranteed by a shared Constitution and periodic elections.

At the same time, it seems completely acceptable to recognize as superior to the federal Constitution (the shared social contract regulating democratic process in the country), regulations which are passed outside the democratic control of the people living in the Country itself.

Not clear to me how all this should protect human rights (or even pose threats to prosperity!).
Pretty clear though how this will affect the Swiss democratic process in the future.

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  #136  
Old 20.11.2018, 19:28
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Re: SVP self-determination initiative

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Yes, I don't see how this information is the least bit useful as regards the goal of this thread, which was outlined, by the opening post:

What the polls say hardly has any bearing on the substance of the initiative itself. Furthermore, there are numerous polls available, with varying results.
Polls are just polls after all.

But if you think that discussing polling numbers is constructive to the discussion of whether or not one should vote for this initiative, then by all means do carry on.
The topic of this thread is defined by the title. As an EF member you do not have any rights to limit this debate by an opening post or otherwise..
If you failed to define the title correctly to reflect your aims then that is your problem not mine.

Poll numbers show how people say they plan to vote; they do not advise people how to vote?
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  #137  
Old 20.11.2018, 19:36
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Re: SVP self-determination initiative

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I have mixed feelings in observing how some could be truly concerned about potentially seeing Switzerland turning into a country that violates human rights.

I mean: Switzerland!

Not some country in the middle of nowhere where a self-appointed dictator is putting people in prison for no reason…Switzerland.
A country with an ancient and solid democratic tradition, guaranteed by a shared Constitution and periodic elections.

At the same time, it seems completely acceptable to recognize as superior to the federal Constitution (the shared social contract regulating democratic process in the country), regulations which are passed outside the democratic control of the people living in the Country itself.

Not clear to me how all this should protect human rights (or even pose threats to prosperity!).
Pretty clear though how this will affect the Swiss democratic process in the future.

There is an implicit assumption here that the Swiss Govt. sign up to international agreements whilst ignoring what is best for Switzerland. Obviously this is a ridiculous idea so I do not accept this assumption.

This is actually an attempt to circumvent the usual democratic process of voting for politicians who have the discretion to perform their roles to the best of their abilities and to replace this with a set of constricting, artificial and arbitrary rules.
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  #138  
Old 20.11.2018, 19:58
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Re: SVP self-determination initiative

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There is an implicit assumption here that the Swiss Govt. sign up to international agreements whilst ignoring what is best for Switzerland. Obviously this is a ridiculous idea so I do not accept this assumption
Exactly the point.

So, if the assumption is that the Swiss Govt would act in the interest of its citizens, what is the problem with having its legal basis -the shared social contract established the Constitution- the ultimate framework for political decision making?
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  #139  
Old 20.11.2018, 20:22
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Re: SVP self-determination initiative

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Exactly the point.

So, if the assumption is that the Swiss Govt would act in the interest of its citizens, what is the problem with having its legal basis -the shared social contract established the Constitution- the ultimate framework for political decision making?
One question that springs to mind is how often is this framework updated and how relevant is it to today's world and today's issues?

This is putting the same dead hand on decision making as do those religions that require all decisions to based on millennia old books.

Claiming the Constitution is the ultimate framework for political decision making completely ignores the fact that the Constitution is a living document requiring frequent changes and updating.
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  #140  
Old 20.11.2018, 21:03
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Re: SVP self-determination initiative

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One question that springs to mind is how often is this framework updated and how relevant is it to today's world and today's issues?

This is putting the same dead hand on decision making as do those religions that require all decisions to based on millennia old books.

Claiming the Constitution is the ultimate framework for political decision making completely ignores the fact that the Constitution is a living document requiring frequent changes and updating.

You did not answer the question. So my question is left unanswered.

As long as this Constitution is in place, it holds as the legal basis of social contract within the country.
If the Swiss Constitution is too old or not up to date it is up to Swiss citizens to decide. Or shouldn't they?

Because this is the point of the initiative after all: leaving to the Swiss people the right to have a say about themselves and their country, even when it is about international deals.
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