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  #141  
Old 20.11.2018, 21:17
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Re: SVP self-determination initiative

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You did not answer the question. So my question is left unanswered.

As long as this Constitution is in place, it holds as the legal basis of social contract within the country.
If the Swiss Constitution is too old or not up to date it is up to Swiss citizens to decide. Or shouldn't they?

Because this is the point of the initiative after all: leaving to the Swiss people the right to have a say about themselves and their country, even when it is about international deals.
Your position is that it is a very slow and cumbersome process to ask the Swiss people to update the Constitution so you want to block the Govt. from making any decisions on international deals because the timescales to change the Constitution will not be realistic? The dead hand in action

In fact, like in most other countries, the Swiss people have the right to a say about themselves and their country by voting in their representatives. Equally if their elected representatives fail in their tasks then the Swiss people can vote them out. Democracy in action!

I explained the problem with using the Constitution as the ultimate framework for political decision making. If you did not understand my answer then I am sorry, I do not know how to more simplify my answer so you would understand it.
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  #142  
Old 20.11.2018, 21:57
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Re: SVP self-determination initiative

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No there aren't. There's been a couple with similar results.
Blick made one with nearly 25'000 respondents which showed 49% Ja and 51% Nein.
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  #143  
Old 20.11.2018, 22:14
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Re: SVP self-determination initiative

In the end, those of us who have decided to vote YES will vote YES, and vice-versa, and nothing in this thread will change that.

Tom
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  #144  
Old 20.11.2018, 22:15
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Re: SVP self-determination initiative

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This is actually an attempt to circumvent the usual democratic process of voting for politicians
Voting for politicians is completely untouched by the SBI.

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who have the discretion to perform their roles to the best of their abilities
This is also untouched by the SBI. ('their abilities' are already lawfully restricted)

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and to replace this with a set of constricting
Yes, the SBI 'constricts' politicians and judges to use the Swiss Federal Constitution as the highest lawful authority in the land.

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, artificial
If the SBI text is 'artificial' how is any legal text not also 'artificial'?

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and arbitrary rules
Arbitrary OED definition:
Based on random choice or personal whim, rather than any reason or system.

Just because you do not agree with the 'reason' behind the SBI does not mean it is without reason, and therefore is not 'arbitrary'.
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  #145  
Old 20.11.2018, 22:17
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Re: SVP self-determination initiative

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You did not answer the question. So my question is left unanswered.

As long as this Constitution is in place, it holds as the legal basis of social contract within the country.
If the Swiss Constitution is too old or not up to date it is up to Swiss citizens to decide. Or shouldn't they?

Because this is the point of the initiative after all: leaving to the Swiss people the right to have a say about themselves and their country, even when it is about international deals.
The Swiss citizens decide about changes of the constitution all the time.

The point of this specific initiative, the way it is phrased and timed is about if the SVP wants to push through anti-foreign-initiatives which are against international contracts the international contracts should be cancelled.
If you listened carefully to the SVP advocats (Arena, etc.) they even admitted just that. In fact, one didn't need to listen very carefully to hear it.
As usual a basically good thought is taken too far, aiming at the wrong goals.
We went through the Schwarzenbach times (well, my parents did), we're going through the extremist SVP ideas .... if this country is still what it was so far, we'll finish November 2018 unharmed.
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  #146  
Old 20.11.2018, 22:17
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Re: SVP self-determination initiative

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In the end, those of us who have decided to vote YES will vote YES, and vice-versa, and nothing in this thread will change that.

Tom
I have yet to fill out my ballot sheet, but I am leaning more and more to a Ja.

It's pretty cool how many large and small discussion and debate events are going on throughout the country ..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=unVSWBXKS4U&t=2249s
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  #147  
Old 20.11.2018, 22:18
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Re: SVP self-determination initiative

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Your position is that it is a very slow and cumbersome process to ask the Swiss people to update the Constitution so you want to block the Govt. from making any decisions on international deals because the timescales to change the Constitution will not be realistic? The dead hand in action

In fact, like in most other countries, the Swiss people have the right to a say about themselves and their country by voting in their representatives. Equally if their elected representatives fail in their tasks then the Swiss people can vote them out. Democracy in action!

I explained the problem with using the Constitution as the ultimate framework for political decision making. If you did not understand my answer then I am sorry, I do not know how to more simplify my answer so you would understand it.
The very opposite actually. My position is that Swiss people should be master of their own destiny, including their right to change their Constitution, which is up to them to decide, in the form they decide, when they decide.

International regulations which are not subjected to public vote prior their integration into the local laws and as such, they are outside the democratic control exercised by the people.

There is no problem "in using a Constitution" (quoting your words).
Liberal democracies are safeguarded by their Constitutional laws.

Up to now, at least.
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  #148  
Old 20.11.2018, 22:24
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Re: SVP self-determination initiative

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I have yet to fill out my ballot sheet, but I am leaning more and more to a Ja.

It's pretty cool how many large and small discussion and debate events are going on throughout the country ..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=unVSWBXKS4U&t=2249s
Seriously? This is the kind of "info" you will base your decision on?
Your link is a monologue - not a discussion
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  #149  
Old 20.11.2018, 22:25
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Re: SVP self-determination initiative

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You did not answer the question. So my question is left unanswered.

As long as this Constitution is in place, it holds as the legal basis of social contract within the country.
If the Swiss Constitution is too old or not up to date it is up to Swiss citizens to decide. Or shouldn't they?

Because this is the point of the initiative after all: leaving to the Swiss people the right to have a say about themselves and their country, even when it is about international deals.
But the Swiss people do have the right to have a say about themselves and their country, even when it is about international deals?

It is known as the popular initiative!
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  #150  
Old 20.11.2018, 22:30
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Re: SVP self-determination initiative

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The Swiss citizens decide about changes of the constitution all the time.

The point of this specific initiative, the way it is phrased and timed is about if the SVP wants to push through anti-foreign-initiatives which are against international contracts the international contracts should be cancelled.
If you listened carefully to the SVP advocats (Arena, etc.) they even admitted just that. In fact, one didn't need to listen very carefully to hear it.
As usual a basically good thought is taken too far, aiming at the wrong goals.
We went through the Schwarzenbach times (well, my parents did), we're going through the extremist SVP ideas .... if this country is still what it was so far, we'll finish November 2018 unharmed.
The German Federal Constitutional Court evaluates and filters in the light of the German Constitution laws & regulations (including EU ones).
Germany is the first exporter in Europe (not exactly broke).

How the ability of letting the Swiss people to express their vote on international regulations may pose a threat to their well-being (including economical) seems to me a real mistery.
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  #151  
Old 20.11.2018, 22:30
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Re: SVP self-determination initiative

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The point of this specific initiative, the way it is phrased and timed is about if the SVP wants to push through anti-foreign-initiatives which are against international contracts the international contracts should be cancelled.
Well it's obviously a byproduct of the non-implementation of the MEI. But I would say it's not only about 'anti-foreign-initiatives'. I think this is a cheap smear to make it easier to dismiss legitimate issues.

There are other initiatives which would be in the cross-hairs of international treaties if they were adopted by the electorate - across the political spectrum.

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As usual a basically good thought is taken too far, aiming at the wrong goals.
...
we're going through the extremist SVP ideas ....
Exactly the same could be said about the SP, the Greens or indeed the Left in general.
And 'as usual' the SVP is for many enough reason in and of itself to vote against the SBI. Fair enough. For many on the Right they might also say anything from the Greens or SP they would defacto vote against. But then we have to acknowledge that bigot's exist across the political spectrum, and it's just as reprehensible if it occurs on the Right or the Left.
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  #152  
Old 20.11.2018, 22:31
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Re: SVP self-determination initiative

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But the Swiss people do have the right to have a say about themselves and their country, even when it is about international deals?

It is known as the popular initiative!
They very much do IMHO
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  #153  
Old 20.11.2018, 22:33
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Re: SVP self-determination initiative

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Seriously? This is the kind of "info" you will base your decision on?
Your link is a monologue - not a discussion
Yes, this is all I have to base my decision on ... sorry, us uneducated masses out here are not privy to the high-minded dialog that occurs within University Law Faculties (was that you who brought that up or someone else? )

Send me what you think I should base my decision on.
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  #154  
Old 20.11.2018, 22:38
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Re: SVP self-determination initiative

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Seriously? This is the kind of "info" you will base your decision on?
Your link is a monologue - not a discussion
Roger Köppel? I have heard nothing from him for a long time, so much for the rising star who finished a record first on the Zürich SVP Nationalrat election list.
He also holds another record, the SVP Nationalrat who attends fewest Nationalrat meetings
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  #155  
Old 20.11.2018, 22:41
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Re: SVP self-determination initiative

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But the Swiss people do have the right to have a say about themselves and their country, even when it is about international deals?

It is known as the popular initiative!
Thank you for recognizing that. Now the problem seems to be that even though we have that right, and used it with the MEI, something in Switzerland changed which allowed an International treaty to have priority over the MEI. Is this not a problem for the Initiative going forward?

My problem is that you people claim that 'Swiss people do have the right to have a say about themselves and their country, even when it is about international deals' as a reason why the SBI is not needed on the one hand, but then as regards the MEI (which was exactly that) you raise all hell against it. So which is it? Do we really have the right to have a say over international treaties, their renegotiation and annulment, or not? ... Or is it only when your political flavor is dominating that you are savvy with the way things turned out with the MEI?
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  #156  
Old 20.11.2018, 22:58
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Re: SVP self-determination initiative

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Thank you for recognizing that. Now the problem seems to be that even though we have that right, and used it with the MEI, something in Switzerland changed which allowed an International treaty to have priority over the MEI. Is this not a problem for the Initiative going forward?

My problem is that you people claim that 'Swiss people do have the right to have a say about themselves and their country, even when it is about international deals' as a reason why the SBI is not needed on the one hand, but then as regards the MEI (which was exactly that) you raise all hell against it. So which is it? Do we really have the right to have a say over international treaties, their renegotiation and annulment, or not? ... Or is it only when your political flavor is dominating that you are savvy with the way things turned out with the MEI?
So what is your position now? You say that the MEI initiative was not implemented so are you are now saying SBI will also not be implemented and therefore is a waste of time?
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  #157  
Old 20.11.2018, 23:10
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Re: SVP self-determination initiative

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Thank you for recognizing that. Now the problem seems to be that even though we have that right, and used it with the MEI, something in Switzerland changed which allowed an International treaty to have priority over the MEI. Is this not a problem for the Initiative going forward?

My problem is that you people claim that 'Swiss people do have the right to have a say about themselves and their country, even when it is about international deals' as a reason why the SBI is not needed on the one hand, but then as regards the MEI (which was exactly that) you raise all hell against it. So which is it? Do we really have the right to have a say over international treaties, their renegotiation and annulment, or not? ... Or is it only when your political flavor is dominating that you are savvy with the way things turned out with the MEI?
As a foreigner I am really jealous of the unique direct democracy approach of this country (like nowhere else in Europe and probably beyond that).

A supranational external constraint will be the perfect scapegoat and the perfect excuse to reduce Swiss citizens' sphere of influence in important (potentially critical) matters.

I am seeing that attempts to cripple this very unique democratic process (or the democratic control overall) are not uncommon.
Yet, I hope that it will be preserved and defended.
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  #158  
Old 21.11.2018, 00:18
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Re: SVP self-determination initiative

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The German Federal Constitutional Court evaluates and filters in the light of the German Constitution laws & regulations (including EU ones).
Germany is the first exporter in Europe (not exactly broke).

How the ability of letting the Swiss people to express their vote on international regulations may pose a threat to their well-being (including economical) seems to me a real mistery.
What ever you're trying to say here, it had nothing to do with what I wrote, so don't try to pretend it has by quoting me.

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Well it's obviously a byproduct of the non-implementation of the MEI. But I would say it's not only about 'anti-foreign-initiatives'. I think this is a cheap smear to make it easier to dismiss legitimate issues.

There are other initiatives which would be in the cross-hairs of international treaties if they were adopted by the electorate - across the political spectrum.
It is not a byproduct of MEI. It is about the MEI. The last sentence of Albert Rösti in Arena was: "Es geht um Masseneinwanderungsinitiative umsetzen. Ausschaffungsinitiative umsetzen. Punkt."
As I said, one doesn't even have to listen carefully.

But ofcourse one can turn on the coffee-machine .... or a hoover ... when things are said one doesn't want to take note of.

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Exactly the same could be said about the SP, the Greens or indeed the Left in general.
And 'as usual' the SVP is for many enough reason in and of itself to vote against the SBI. Fair enough. For many on the Right they might also say anything from the Greens or SP they would defacto vote against. But then we have to acknowledge that bigot's exist across the political spectrum, and it's just as reprehensible if it occurs on the Right or the Left.
Exactly what same? Interesting how you read things that aren't there.
I've voted with SVP before. But not on their anti-foreigner crap.

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Yes, this is all I have to base my decision on ... sorry, us uneducated masses out here are not privy to the high-minded dialog that occurs within University Law Faculties (was that you who brought that up or someone else? )

Send me what you think I should base my decision on.
That's scary. But then again, you're not the only one.

Nope, I did not bring up University Law Faculties and you could have easily checked that instead of giving the impression I possibly did.

I will not send you anything to base your decision on. It's your decision and your job to check all sources before making one. I never tell people what to vote, that is not the Swiss system.

PS: I will not call you stupid or any other names should you end up voting differently from me either. Btw.

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Roger Köppel? I have heard nothing from him for a long time, so much for the rising star who finished a record first on the Zürich SVP Nationalrat election list.
He also holds another record, the SVP Nationalrat who attends fewest Nationalrat meetings
The speech time in the Nationalrat is much shorter than in a youtube video. And you can't cut the others out.
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  #159  
Old 21.11.2018, 00:43
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Re: SVP self-determination initiative

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As a foreigner I am really jealous of the unique direct democracy approach of this country (like nowhere else in Europe and probably beyond that).

A supranational external constraint will be the perfect scapegoat and the perfect excuse to reduce Swiss citizens' sphere of influence in important (potentially critical) matters.

I am seeing that attempts to cripple this very unique democratic process (or the democratic control overall) are not uncommon.
Yet, I hope that it will be preserved and defended.
Really confusing statement?

Are you now claiming this initiative is an attempt to cripple this very unique democratic process?
Or are you now indulging in whataboutery that is completely irrelevant to this thread.
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Old 21.11.2018, 06:22
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Really confusing statement?

Are you now claiming this initiative is an attempt to cripple this very unique democratic process?
Or are you now indulging in whataboutery that is completely irrelevant to this thread.

Well, it actually is.

Because the Swiss people won't have the right to have a say about themselves and their country, when it is about international deals.

Therefore, their democratic sphere of influence (as well as their power) will be reduced.

Good day!
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