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  #161  
Old 21.11.2018, 07:57
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Re: SVP self-determination initiative

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Well, it actually is.

Because the Swiss people won't have the right to have a say about themselves and their country, when it is about international deals.

Therefore, their democratic sphere of influence (as well as their power) will be reduced.

Good day!
Not actually true. There can be a direct referendum on said international deals any time if the appropriate number of signatures are gathered. The initiative, in reality, is only about trying to open an underhand back door to enable the SVP to use their usual disreputable single issues to undermine Switzerland's agreements with the EU.

Switzerland is only in these international agreements in the first place because the people were in favour, either actively (through a vote) or passively (because not enough people could be found to raise an objection). Only right that these decisions are open to a direct challenge only, not some SVP neocons trying to find an emotive issue to chip away at them.

I am very confident that a direct initiative to leave the European Convention on Human Rights would fail which is why the SVP will try to breach it through their attacks on refugees for example.
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  #162  
Old 21.11.2018, 09:16
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Re: SVP self-determination initiative

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So what is your position now? You say that the MEI initiative was not implemented so are you are now saying SBI will also not be implemented and therefore is a waste of time?
Total deflection.

And, yes, I would not put it past the point of possibility for the SBI to also be ignored by policy implementer's should it pass the electoral gauntlet. Be that as it may, I do not think it a 'waste of time' because it would only serve to expose the threat to our Democracy even further.

But could you address the point I made to you now?
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  #163  
Old 21.11.2018, 09:47
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Re: SVP self-determination initiative

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Blick made one with nearly 25'000 respondents which showed 49% Ja and 51% Nein.
From Blick a couple of days ago "the latest poll shows 61% against and 37% for". (German language)

Same article says the SVP are stepping up their campaign but as more than half the likely voters have already voted then not much chance of a big change to the forecast result.....
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  #164  
Old 21.11.2018, 10:07
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Re: SVP self-determination initiative

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It is not a byproduct of MEI.
A better term would have been 'result' - it was a result of the non-implementation of the MEI.
And actually, looking at the definition of the word 'byproduct' ...

An incidental or secondary product made in the manufacture or synthesis of something else

It actually can work, in that ...
The manufacturing of the non-implementation of the MEI made the secondary production of the SBI possible. Or in other words - had it not been for the non-implementation of the MEI we would likely not be seeing the SBI. But that does not mean that, as you said, 'The point of this specific initiative, ... is about if the SVP wants to push through anti-foreign-initiatives' full stop - which is what you implied. It's primarily about the non-implementation of initiatives, be they 'anti-foreign' or not, based on the prioritization of international treaties.

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Exactly what same? Interesting how you read things that aren't there.
I don't know what's so confusing about saying that disparaging remarks such as the ones you made towards the SVP aren't just as easy used against the SP, Greens and Left in general.

Such as 'As usual a basically good thought is taken too far, aiming at the wrong goals.' - Can be said about the Left as well ... just look at their immigration policy (or lack thereof), or intersectionality and identity politics ... 'basically good thought' being 'taken too far' due to 'aiming at the wrong goals'. What's so confusing about that?

And the other one, 'we're going through the extremist SVP ideas' - Can be changed to 'we're going through the extremist SP/Greens ideas' very easily. Only confusing if one has blinders on.


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I've voted with SVP before.
Ok. I too have voted along with Leftwing parties too, and sometime in direct contradiction to the SVP consensus.

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But not on their anti-foreigner crap.
... But not on their pro-foreigner 'crap' ...

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Nope, I did not bring up University Law Faculties and you could have easily checked that instead of giving the impression I possibly did.
Very well. My bad.

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I will not send you anything to base your decision on. It's your decision and your job to check all sources before making one. I never tell people what to vote, that is not the Swiss system.
You seem to be inferring that the sources you base your decisions on are also sources which 'tell people what to vote'. But I guess this was a mistake.

I never asked you to 'tell me what to vote'. You dissed the one bit of material I linked to (mind you, without any argument other than 'that's a monologue' - which is neither true nor an argument), so the logical conclusion is that you have a wealth of information which you think is superior to it. I challenged you to supply this superior information and you come back with that? Ok. Sure.
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  #165  
Old 21.11.2018, 10:12
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Re: SVP self-determination initiative

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From Blick a couple of days ago "the latest poll shows 61% against and 37% for". (German language)

Same article says the SVP are stepping up their campaign but as more than half the likely voters have already voted then not much chance of a big change to the forecast result.....
That' Blick reporting on the SRG survey, not Blick's own. I'll put a screenshot here: https://ibb.co/kD08xA

Just to be clear, I never said that the other polls are wrong, but just that they were not the only ones out there ... as some seem to think.

Last edited by EAB; 21.11.2018 at 10:48.
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  #166  
Old 21.11.2018, 10:14
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Re: SVP self-determination initiative

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Really confusing statement?

Are you now claiming this initiative is an attempt to cripple this very unique democratic process?
Or are you now indulging in whataboutery that is completely irrelevant to this thread.
Not confusing. Read it again, but this time try to think about the author's perspective. It's pretty clear.
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  #167  
Old 21.11.2018, 10:39
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Re: SVP self-determination initiative

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Not actually true. There can be a direct referendum on said international deals any time if the appropriate number of signatures are gathered.
AFAIK only treaties with 15 years duration or longer, or ones that lead to the founding of an international organisation CH will be member of. Additional conditions probably apply, it makes no sense to subject a treaty with a neigbor country on crossborder collaboration of the police corps to a federal vote.

That said, a change to the constitution is in the works (page not available in English) that will subject all international treaties that range superior to the constitution (like the mandatory part of the EHRC) to a mandatory federal referendum. This was started by a parliamentary initiative a few years ago.

In fact, this change will (would) subject accepting additional protocols to the EHRC, e.g. protocol 12 (ban of discrimination) to a vote.

Last edited by Urs Max; 21.11.2018 at 10:52.
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  #168  
Old 21.11.2018, 10:46
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Re: SVP self-determination initiative

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There can be a direct referendum on said international deals any time if the appropriate number of signatures are gathered.
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The initiative, in reality, is only about trying to open an underhand back door to enable the SVP to use their usual disreputable single issues to undermine Switzerland's agreements with the EU.
If placing the Swiss Constitution above all other law and international treaties is an attempt to 'undermine Switzerland's agreements with the EU' then I am all for it! I am all for the undermining of treaties which are causing unnecessary harm to this country.

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Switzerland is only in these international agreements in the first place because the people were in favour, either actively (through a vote) or passively (because not enough people could be found to raise an objection).
Basically correct. And then ... times change ... and with time changing, circumstances also change.

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Only right that these decisions are open to a direct challenge only, not some SVP neocons trying to find an emotive issue to chip away at them.
So ...
1. Swiss Direct Democracy makes it possible for the people to have a right to call for the renegotiation or termination of an international treaty
2. The MEI which allowed the people to have a right to call for the renegotiation or termination of an international treaty was nothing more than 'some SVP neocons trying to find an emotive issue to chip away at them' - and therefore is ... what? ... not fair? ... undemocratic? ... invalid? ...
As I asked marton ... which is it? Do the people have a say on international treaties or not?

https://ibb.co/fxbvAV
https://ibb.co/dsNDxA
https://ibb.co/iAGHPq

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I am very confident that a direct initiative to leave the European Convention on Human Rights would fail which is why the SVP will try to breach it through their attacks on refugees for example.
This is a red hearing and is assuming to read minds of 'the SVP'. The implementation of the SBI does not require Switzerland's annulment of the ECHR treaty.

Point really seems to come down to this:
The centre-to-Left in Switzerland have found that they can use International Law to essentially, as a last resort, bend the rules in their favor. Ergo, they are in favor of more ties to International Law ... because International Law has become increasingly Left-leaning and suits their political and ideological ends. Come a time, however, when the table flips and International Law were to become Right-leaning the Left would be for something like the SBI.
So many on the Left are only for International Law so far as it suits their aims - as many on the Right are only in favor of detaching from International Law as far as it suits their aims.
So this is not about International Law, in and of itself, being "a good" or it existing beyond the scope of things either the Left or the Right are against. It's merely an extension of Left/Rightwing politics fighting it out on a supranational scale.
The question comes down to: who has a right to have the last word 100% of the time on laws created and enforced in Switzerland? The Right would mostly say "The Swiss citizen", while the Left would mostly say things to the tune of "The Swiss citizen, except in the case of XYZ", or "What's Switzerland?" or "No Borders!!".
So there are deeply-rooted convictions and ideological perspectives at play here, and to me the essential glorification and sanctification of the ECHR and International Law is just a Leftwing version of 'an underhand back door to enable the Left to use their usual disreputable single issues to undermine Switzerland's Direct Democracy' (to paraphrase you) because at this point in time Direct Democracy is proving to be a threat to Leftwing ideology - not only in Switzerland either!
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  #169  
Old 21.11.2018, 10:57
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Re: SVP self-determination initiative

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Blick made one with nearly 25'000 respondents which showed 49% Ja and 51% Nein.
Care to provide a link to that? I cannot see it anywhere and a poll with 25,000 respondents is expensive and therefore a very rare animal anywhere. Certainly not in Switzerland in my memory.

Unless you're talking about a reader response survey which of course doesn't remotely qualify as a poll. Asking Blick readers is about as useful as asking Daily Mail readers about the EU.
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  #170  
Old 21.11.2018, 11:07
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Re: SVP self-determination initiative

Just on a couple of points...
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...This is a red hearing and is assuming to read minds of 'the SVP'. The implementation of the SBI does not require Switzerland's annulment of the ECHR treaty....
The SVP have long wanted to withdraw from the ECHR. No mind reading needed, you can easily find plenty of statements in that direction.

Oh and it's a herring btw.

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...centre-to-Left....
Centre to left eh? Has it possibly escaped your attention that the SVP are the ONLY major Swiss party in favour? Even the FDP, not exactly known for their left leanings, are against.
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  #171  
Old 21.11.2018, 11:11
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Re: SVP self-determination initiative

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And, yes, I would not put it past the point of possibility for the SBI to also be ignored by policy implementer's should it pass the electoral gauntlet. Be that as it may, I do not think it a 'waste of time' because it would only serve to expose the threat to our Democracy even further.
Actually the SBI with its automatism is anything but direct-democracy-friendly.
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  #172  
Old 21.11.2018, 11:15
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Re: SVP self-determination initiative

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Care to provide a link to that? I cannot see it anywhere and a poll with 25,000 respondents is expensive and therefore a very rare animal anywhere. Certainly not in Switzerland in my memory.

Unless you're talking about a reader response survey which of course doesn't remotely qualify as a poll. Asking Blick readers is about as useful as asking Daily Mail readers about the EU.
I already provided a link to the screenshot I saved .. I don't have a link to the article. And yes, it was a readership poll. You can discount it is you like, but it was nearly 25'000 respondents, and was pretty balanced.

If your claim is that it's not valid because Blick's readership is mostly right-wing (I would have to see data on that), what's to stop me from saying that SRF's readership (much like the BBC), or people who fill out Tamedia of Gfs polls are more Left-leaning? People can lie on polls regardless of who is doing them.

Anyhow ... it's really not such a big deal ... polls are polls ... what takes place on voting day is what matters.
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  #173  
Old 21.11.2018, 11:21
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Re: SVP self-determination initiative

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Just on a couple of points...

The SVP have long wanted to withdraw from the ECHR. No mind reading needed, you can easily find plenty of statements in that direction.
The ECHR or the ECHR Treaty? I think their beef is with the ECHR, as in the ECourtofHR, not as much with the ECHR Treaty.

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Centre to left eh? Has it possibly escaped your attention that the SVP are the ONLY major Swiss party in favour? Even the FDP, not exactly known for their left leanings, are against.
The FDP, as a party, are against the SBI, but there have been rumblings among their ranks which indicate that while the party as a whole is against the SBI there are numerous individuals within the party who will very likely vote in favor. Additionally, the FDP, to me, are barely right-of-centre. To me they are the 'money party' - and this means that they are all over the place with their policies because threats to big finance can come from anywhere in politics.

Last edited by EAB; 21.11.2018 at 11:46.
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Old 21.11.2018, 11:22
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Re: SVP self-determination initiative

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Actually the SBI with its automatism is anything but direct-democracy-friendly.
Care to explain what you mean precisely with 'automatism' and how this an enemy to Direct Democracy?
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Old 21.11.2018, 11:24
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Re: SVP self-determination initiative

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I already provided a link to the screenshot I saved .. I don't have a link to the article. And yes, it was a readership poll. You can discount it is you like, but it was nearly 25'000 respondents, and was pretty balanced.

If your claim is that it's not valid because Blick's readership is mostly right-wing (I would have to see data on that), what's to stop me from saying that SRF's readership (much like the BBC), or people who fill out Tamedia of Gfs polls are more Left-leaning? People can lie on polls regardless of who is doing them.

Anyhow ... it's really not such a big deal ... polls are polls ... what takes place on voting day is what matters.
Do you really not get the difference? Perhaps you should do a little learning around the subject.

A readership survey is self-selecting and therefore not random. A poll is (or at least should be - and GFS are pretty reputable) a random selection representative of the general population (and corrections are built in to account for sampling bias). The political leanings of SRFs audience is therefore completely irrelevant to the result.
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Old 21.11.2018, 11:45
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Re: SVP self-determination initiative

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Do you really not get the difference? Perhaps you should do a little learning around the subject.

A readership survey is self-selecting and therefore not random. A poll is (or at least should be - and GFS are pretty reputable) a random selection representative of the general population (and corrections are built in to account for sampling bias). The political leanings of SRFs audience is therefore completely irrelevant to the result.
But the data that is submitted by people, whether verbally or in writing, isn't necessarily true, so couldn't that potentially produce skewed results? I am not claiming that Gfs surveys are inherently unreliable, but just that if people were, for example, not comfortable with replying that they are for/against something they might reply in a different way to which they actually intend to vote.

But I take your point regarding self-selection - but that would apply to pretty much all readership polls - not only Blick or The Daily Mail.
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Old 21.11.2018, 11:52
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Re: SVP self-determination initiative

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But the data that is submitted by people, whether verbally or in writing, isn't necessarily true, so couldn't that potentially produce skewed results? I am not claiming that Gfs surveys are inherently unreliable, but just that if people were, for example, not comfortable with replying that they are for/against something they might reply in a different way to which they actually intend to vote.

But I take your point regarding self-selection - but that would apply to pretty much all readership polls - not only Blick or The Daily Mail.
On the first part, that is the point of the work you do to remove bias.

On the second part I was just using the DM as an example. Historically Blick was SVP supporting, seems to be a bit less rabid in that direction now but still reflected in its readership. And yes, that applies to any self-selecting survey.
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Old 21.11.2018, 11:59
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Re: SVP self-determination initiative

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On the first part, that is the point of the work you do to remove bias.
But you can't know if what people are telling you is the truth or not ... only they know that ...

I remember something like this being discussed before and after the 2016 US elections, where surveys were getting incredibly skewed results because people were essentially not comfortable saying to anyone that they were pro-Trump. I hope we Swiss aren't too uncomfortable to answer honestly to surveyors.

If we look back at the Gfs surveys for the MEI https://www.tagesanzeiger.ch/schweiz...story/25707856

"The third survey conducted by the gfs.bern research institute on the bilateral issues and the implementation of the mass immigration initiative shows that only 36 percent of respondents put a yes to the initiative into the ballot today."

And then ... it passed.

In general I do not put much assurance on polls and surveys, but especially lately in the wake of Brexit, US 2016 elections, the MEI ..
This write-up brings out a lot of interesting questions and points regarding surveys in general ... even thought it's directly mainly at Gfs. https://www.infosperber.ch/Medien/Lo...tlich-Umfragen

Last edited by EAB; 21.11.2018 at 12:11.
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  #179  
Old 21.11.2018, 12:21
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Re: SVP self-determination initiative

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That' Blick reporting on the SRG survey, not Blick's own. I'll put a screenshot here: https://ibb.co/kD08xA

Just to be clear, I never said that the other polls are wrong, but just that they were not the only ones out there ... as some seem to think.
You miss the point; that is the latest poll.
Old polls are as valuable as yesterday's newspaper.
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  #180  
Old 21.11.2018, 12:37
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Re: SVP self-determination initiative

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Care to explain what you mean precisely with 'automatism'
It helps to have read what you argue on.

If the SBI is accepted all "völkerrechtlichen Verträge", international treaties with what's called "Verfassungsrang", that weren't subject to a referendum are immediately and unconditionally void. It's all or nothing, there's no choice. Not what conforms to the granularity of the direct democracy.

Read the proposed §190, the federal court is to ignore an international treaty unless it was subject to a (mandatory or optional) referendum. The Change to §197 rules that this applies to all treaties, including existing ones. AFAIK the EHRC treaty wasn't subject to one, there are probably many more. There doesn't even need to be a conflict with some other part of the constitution.
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